new stuff

[Voragath]

okay pet rant..

lets try this theres 3 raid pet focuses 3 grp pet focuses to get the grp ones u need to complete that tier ( u cant skip a tier) to unlock them via type 3 aug ment. and for raids u need that grp tier and say 2 raids for tier 1 raid pet focus for tier 2 u need tier 1 and 2 missions done and say 4 raids. for tier 3 u need all tiers in grp game complete and say 6 raids. to unlock them via vendor for type 3. now when i say 2-4-6 raids im saying any raids so if theres 14 raids in the expan u need atleast 6 of them and all grp missions and u unlock the top pet focus. that would make it fair so u cant just make a alt and get strongest pet ever. i mean u could but ud have to unlock it via raids and missions which means u worked on it not just TA bam top pet focus.

Apparently you missed SoD. You just described the basis of the SoD system except to get the top focus you had to beat all the raids of the final zone and be flagged for the previous tier, which required a few other raids. What you are missing, which is what people complained about, is that you could sit in GH and get those flags and never, ever, ever set foot in those raids, then go buy your aug. Even if you had to loot them, SoD was so easy that they would have been rotting anyway soon enough. The same system could have been put in place for UF and HoT and still you would see very few top end augs out there. Not many guilds have made it to the end of UF. It was a good system put in place for a bad expansion. Had the system not been implemented until UF, we'd have that system again in HoT and we'd be seeing it again next expansion.

[Piemastaj]

If you increase pet damage, you are essentially increasing dot damage and that won't help our raid burst, which is where we are hurting the most. I'm all for helping pets out but it's not going to fix our raid burst, especially with how our pets die at raids. To fix burst, it has to be something that we can do whenever and it has to be fast and short-lived.

Exactly what I meant. Pets are our sustained option we have available, which we are really well off in. Yes, maybe a slight boost with mana so we could use more rag pets but other then that we are fine there. Even in the group game I think we are stellar. And because of how well we are in the group game is exactly why we will get nerfed if we chose to go the pet route and they did it properly. IMHO we are boarderline OP (so are a lot of classes tho) in the group game. Adding more dmg to pets makes taking on multiple mobs easier and will allow pets to tank better.

I am all for pets, but they will never be our burst option. We have been seeing minor upgrades for the last few expans thanks to the pet focus system in SoD so really I don't see any issue at all by asking for them again and getting nuke love.

[Piemastaj]

Pets need enough done to them to maintain their tanking and their DPS increase to compete in the next expan. We just want upgrades in our burst department more because we are lacking there.

EDIT: Elle brought up a good idea on EQlive for raid only type DPS. In short a of many line based on how many PCs are on the hatelist. I thought it could go like our current of many line with 7 nukes, but with X ppl it does dbl, Y ppl it does triple, and Z people it does quad dmg. Would not be OP in the group game and it could be expanded upon in the raid game and will eliminate the pet push all together.

[Voragath]

What pets can and can't handle depends on the difficulty of the mobs for that expansion. UF was supposed to be tough so those mobs would wtfpwn pets solo. Pet power is also going to be relative to the mobs of that tier. A "blue" (and I'm not clear, so start using DB or LB because it is different for people) from tier 1 is vastly different than a "blue" from tier 3. Should a pet be able to handle a "blue" from tier 3? No, imo.

So far, the devs have been very keen on the role of pets and what they are. Our earth pet was given a boost because his defense was too low at the end of HoT beta. If they can find a way to make pets burst without totally destroying the power of our sustained, then the story will change.

[svenalo]

Point taken.

[Calebe]

A pet is defense, it protects the mage, it is our portable tank. It can stand toe to toe with a dark blue mob, and not poof in a matter of seconds. It can hold it's own. It is damage and decent damage, and burst if you use frenzied burnout. It is part of the mage. It is not to be taken lightly.

Now that is out of the way, to increase our DPS as I said before, make an AA to give us 30 seconds of forced rejuvenation or 45 seconds or 1 minute. whatever they want, but we can cast any spell on that time frame without waiting on a refresh timer. RS pets all the time or spear or clash. That would be burst DPS. A new spell a magic base bolt that does the same damage as spear for those fire immune mobs. Something to upgrade the nuke DPS or use non stop clash or RS pets with the perm forced rejuvenation for a set time.

Calebe

[Tacoma2586]

well if we consider pet a tank that can get it nerfed/stagnated too it has been stated their better than many tanks over many yrs so cant really go that route too...

[Piemastaj]

We are talking about DAMAGE PER SECOND. No one has stated a pet should not be a tank for us. This thread in short is about our DPS for next expansion. In terms of DAMAGE PER SECOND pets are our SUSTAINED damage in a fight. And fyi, frenzied burnout lasts what 3min? That isn't a burst anymore unless it gets a serious upgrade in dmg out-put.

Pets won't get stagnated. When your talking about how much damage someone does you need to break it down into Sustained and Burst damage. That is the only way to do so.

Again like so many mages understand, we don't lack in the pet department now and weren't lacking in UF. They could tank the content fine, maybe not w/o a pet focus but that shows how good pet focuses are. We desperately need Burst to help out raid mages which is half of the game. Burst will also help out a ton in the group game. Like I said before pets will never be our answer for burst because of how greatly it will effect the group game.

A magic type of Spear would be nice. So that we can have a big boom on different types of mobs. Also would help on burns because magic seems to take better then fire anyway.

[qibrme]

I haven't posted here since after BETA because i got turned off by the fact that once again, a one person went to the DEV's during BETA and gave his opinion, thereby ruining an entire expansion for the magicians as a DPS raiding class.
Some of my mage friends asked me to come back to this board to see that we were in the "HERE WE GO AGAIN MODE" yet again, and it seems they are right.
My 2cp:

The DEV's and people who are either not magicians or don't play a mage as their primary toon read these boards and take pieces of what we say here and at EQ live to heart with unintended consequences for our class.

The thread on the EQ live board is titled "Annual classes that need a boost in raiding"

In this thread a DEV, Elidroth actually weighed in very early in the thread by posting [QUOTE]: “RE: Mage ~ Agreed. Need to give them some new stuff to make them hit harder that isn't pet based (IMO). “

So a DEV comes out and says he agrees we need more DPS that isn’t pet based and true to form the discussion here carries on for post after post arguing about pets.

The other thing that magicians here continue to do is suggest good ideas but then self nerf by suggesting we either have to give up something to get an improvement in another area or that we would be overpowered if we got a certain improvement.

Did rangers worry about being overpowered when they went from 20k DPS to 45K DPS right out of the box within 2 weeks of the HOT release last fall and parsing 65k now?
Did necros worry about being overpowered when they had their turn at being DPS kings?

Are raid geared rangers overpowered in the group game? You smurf right they are, but here is some news for anyone who is not an end game raider, EVERY CLASS IS OVERPOWERED IN THE GROUP GAME IF YOUR CHARACTER IS RAID GEARED. Solo and group level players can only benefit from overall improvements that magicians get in order to compete in the raiding environment. Raiding mages WILL BE HURT if the class is tuned around the group/solo game.

As for suggestions: IMO the Of Many line is the only real raid specialty spell we have. We should keep in mind where we want to be as a class relative to other DPS classes.
Adding 2 or 3 strikes to Of Many will do little to close the gap.
If other classes can do 65k we should be able to do 55k on a full burn IMO.
The idea of having Of Many strike the mob based on all the pets including RS and swarm or all the players on agro will help.
The extended forced rejuv will also allow us to burn for max burst DPS
Allowing RS to work with twin cast is another idea that has been around since twin cast came into the game.
As for tying our DPS improvements to long quests or end game final boss fights, etc, I don’t see why. Elidroth said we need a DPS boost. The classes that are ahead of us now did not have to do any special hoop jumping to get what they have in DPS, it was coded into the game with their AA’s, spells, weapon procs, etc. Whatever we get should come from doing the same types of actions everyone else has done.
Elidroth did not say wait for the next expansion so those who posted that this is a discussion about DPS for a later expansion, I would ask that you focus on our immediate need to not stay irrelevant for another 8 or 9 months while waiting for the next expansion.

Finally, why do I keep saying that we should focus on what Elidroth said and thinks?

Because he is a DEV and as such the only one posting on the subject that can really do something about our situation.

Ask for the moon and let the DEV’s decide what is enough or too much power.


Sued…

[Tacoma2586]

theres no way we will suffer. we cant. our pets will get the boost they need next xpan like they always do. 1-2 pet focuses will be unlocked for groupers and hopefully the dev wanting to boost the drop rate to raid focuses will get raiders the need their looking for. what we need now and next xpan tho is some burst dps to atleast be wanted in raids like most classes are. least be competitive. people have thrown out ideas. you could be like the others cal, etc and help provide ideas.