The nerf thread closed

[dreneth]

Are you willing to give up your tanking goodies that mage pets don't get in order to get mitigation that our pets get?

Here's the thing. If we do that, we become a fraction of a class - pets without Masters. What percentage of your class power do you define the pet as encompassing?

Perhaps you can sweeten the deal for me a bit.

Throw in the relevant pet tanking "goodies", Mage+pet DPS, one-item gearing and the ability to hold agro over players in melee range. I would go with "yes".

[Enkel]

I have submitted my tanking parses to the needed parties, and don't spam the boards trying to get a class nerfed, which you were obviously calling for. If you wanted boosts to tanking and pets not touched, which was claimed by warriors, you would have titled the thread differently. Not Pet Mitigations: Parses and Discussion. From the outset you set the tone for the thread, it was to get pets nerfed. You might have wanted warrior boosts, but the diction used by many warriors was that of individuals wanting another class nerfed. I don't know why you're on our forums, salty much?, trying to spam things up. If mages are going to your forums spamming I'll gladly talk to them. I don't know if it is any good, but I will give it an attempt. We don't need you here causing drama, you have your parses, and several top end mages ran theirs with warriors in their guilds (rangers, monks, etc). I personally rather keep the forums here civil, and don't want it to fester like the SoE forums do.

[dreneth]

don't spam the boards trying to get a class nerfed, which you were obviously calling for.

And here you provide another example of that which does not exist. Pointing out an imbalance is not a nerf call. Nowhere have I suggested specific reductions to your pet capacities.

My goal here is to provide perspective on the scale of the imbalance for a motivational purpose. A rallying call of sorts.

Changes are coming.

Plane of War was perhaps the last big sign you'll see before they arrive. The 800lb gorilla is about to start tearing the room apart. Rather than constructive discussion, I see the pet community pointing fingers and needlessly getting wrapped up in the back-and-forth.

This is not in your best interest.

Rather, take your heads out of the sand and grasp the opportunity. The greatest minds of the pet community are here. I'd like to see you put them together and proactively discuss what changes should me made to remediate this imbalance in a realistic manner most beneficial to your class.

Or you could keep insisting pets are fine while you get steamrolled by nerfs.

Up to you.

[Falore]

don't spam the boards trying to get a class nerfed, which you were obviously calling for.

And here you provide another example of that which does not exist. Pointing out an imbalance is not a nerf call. Nowhere have I suggested specific reductions to your pet capacities.

My goal here is to provide perspective on the scale of the imbalance for a motivational purpose. A rallying call of sorts.

Changes are coming.

Plane of War was perhaps the last big sign you'll see before they arrive. The 800lb gorilla is about to start tearing the room apart. Rather than constructive discussion, I see the pet community pointing fingers and needlessly getting wrapped up in the back-and-forth.

This is not in your best interest.

Rather, take your heads out of the sand and grasp the opportunity. The greatest minds of the pet community are here. I'd like to see you put them together and proactively discuss what changes should me made to remediate this imbalance in a realistic manner most beneficial to your class.

Or you could keep insisting pets are fine while you get steamrolled by nerfs.

Up to you.

To put it bluntly but honestly. IF changes are indeed coming they probably would not have been coming if people with nothing better to do with their massive amounts of free time didn't sob like bitches at the expense of other peoples fun...

Sorry that's as polite as i can be without being a liar.


EDIT: this post is mostly aimed at the collective masses that have brought about major changes to several classes over the years (some of which were needed but several of which were NOT) Whining players have shown that they have far more pull in eq than they really should and the entire thing has grown tiresome)

[Bedavir]

IF changes are coming (and I'd bet on it), it's because the changes were needed. Manning is so tight at EQ headquarters these days that they often rely on members of the community to provide data and feedback. This is nothing new. Select members of the EQ community (not me) have been tasked with and even rewarded for putting in man hours in hashing things out and parsing them. This is why some individuals (no, not me) are listened to above and beyond the general clamoring masses.

I have no absolute examples or proof to back this example up, but I'd bet it's why what people like Beimeith have to say get preferentially listened to.

I don't fault you for being overly defensive and, at times, obtuse when faced with cold hard data. You are comfortable where you your class are at and are afraid of what might come down the pipe. Rest assured, whatever it is will ultimately benefit the game and whatever semblance of "balance" we can still strive for.

PS: I'd apologize about the beaming nerf ... but gosh golly ... that was the bane of many a server for countless months. Zone lag griefing, endless trolling in general chat channels selling PLs and xp faster than anybody else could deliver.

Balance. It is all about balance.

And right now? Sorry charlie, but pets from a tanking standpoint are way out of whack. Under the best of circumstances, a pet should be worse than a comparably geared and aa'd tank. Right now, group focus pets are literally running figure eights (from an ease to heal and raw incoming damage standpoint) around raid geared tanks.

Your best bet in the future is not to jump up and down and stamp your feet. Being "nonproductive" and inflammatory on SoE boards will result in deleted posts and punitive action. If your anecdotal experiences are so vastly different from everyone elses - parse it. Prove it. Anecdotal experiences are worth nothing unless backed up. In this situation, however - you wouldn't have much success in coming up with contradictory, factual proof - it's not there to find. I know - I looked hard. When the new and improved pet tanking modality goes live - I'll still enjoy my mage, beastlord, and necro as much as I ever did. They'll still tank at the level they should and still be capable - they just won't be overpowered like they are now.

Did you ever really stop to think why pet tanking was disabled in PoWar? It isn't because everyone hates pet classes - SoE has known for a while that using a pet to tank challenging content makes it trivial as long as the fight mechanics don't prohibit it. So how do they keep PoW challenging? By putting in mechanics that prohibit it.

Once pets are fixed, you'll have more than enough ammunition to have the current anti-pet mechanics stripped from the plane of war.

[deadman1204]

You're making the false assumption that Dreneth is concerned about what is accurate, not about his narrative.

[Maject]

dreneth wrote:
" one-item gearing"

dreneth if you believe I only need a ear piece to be a mage then nothing you say carries any weight here, because you demonstrate your ignorance and anger toward mage class just by saying that. All you need is a sword? is that right? I don't think so.

I'm seeing this alot from seemingly ignorant people, "all mage needs is a ear piece". You must see lots of pets without their pet owner or what? Mages are made of silk once the mobs on us we die fast it means the pet dies too, our pets help prevent that instant death by being our buffer, once we die our pets don't work really well, so WE NEED ALL THE GEAR ANY OTHER CLASS NEEDS TO SURVIVE (dead mage equals no dps and no pet) If you think you can be good mage with just a ear piece then it shows your ignorance toward a whole class.

[Tweelis]

Are you willing to give up your tanking goodies that mage pets don't get in order to get mitigation that our pets get?

Here's the thing. If we do that, we become a fraction of a class - pets without Masters. What percentage of your class power do you define the pet as encompassing?

Perhaps you can sweeten the deal for me a bit.

Throw in the relevant pet tanking "goodies", Mage+pet DPS, one-item gearing and the ability to hold agro over players in melee range. I would go with "yes".

Sounds like you need to delete your tank and play a mage full time.

[Voragath]

IF changes are coming (and I'd bet on it), it's because the changes were needed. Manning is so tight at EQ headquarters these days that they often rely on members of the community to provide data and feedback. This is nothing new. Select members of the EQ community (not me) have been tasked with and even rewarded for putting in man hours in hashing things out and parsing them. This is why some individuals (no, not me) are listened to above and beyond the general clamoring masses.

I have no absolute examples or proof to back this example up, but I'd bet it's why what people like Beimeith have to say get preferentially listened to.

This shows a common theme with your posts: discussion on things you have no clue about. I have been in the CRT program a few years now and I can tell you right away that they don't rely on the community for feedback nor do certain knowledgeable individuals have pull. I have seen some crazy data analysis done and presented to the devs and totally disregarded by these "select members." Sure, feedback and information these individuals collect might be weighted more, that's what the point of the CRT program is, but it is not rewarded or needed. Most of the times, what happens is that these individuals fall onto a problem the devs have already started to fix so then the fix looks like the devs listened to them. And, we have seen where the community has found bugs before and had them fixed but the devs can't find all bugs but that is with any software.

I don't fault you for being overly defensive and, at times, obtuse when faced with cold hard data. You are comfortable where you your class are at and are afraid of what might come down the pipe. Rest assured, whatever it is will ultimately benefit the game and whatever semblance of "balance" we can still strive for.

Obtuse? Here's a hard cold fact: Clairvoyance returns the number of clairvoyance stat a player has when it fires and I have about 1k clairvoyance. OMG!!! I can sustain my mana pool indefinitely!!! The obtuse part is you: data is just data and meaningless unless it is utilized in a larger context. So, clairvoyance only fires 1% of the time I cast which means out of one pool of mana, I get one clairvoyance fire. Hardly anything to concern myself over; if they removed it tomorrow, I wouldn't notice.

Balance. It is all about balance.

And right now? Sorry charlie, but pets from a tanking standpoint are way out of whack. Under the best of circumstances, a pet should be worse than a comparably geared and aa'd tank. Right now, group focus pets are literally running figure eights (from an ease to heal and raw incoming damage standpoint) around raid geared tanks.

You are making an assumption and a personal qualifier here. You are not a dev and the devs alone decide how well a pet should compare next to a warrior. The balance is that pets and PC's can't do the same thing. Balance encompasses, from a dev standpoint, more than one or two stats. They take EVERYTHING into consideration. Here's a bit of evidence: devs consider every mage DS into our dps. That's right. Our DS's that nobody likes to use or is always clicking off is part of our dps. You know nothing about the word "balance" as the devs use it in this game. Further showing how obtuse and ignorant you are of how this game is designed.

Your best bet in the future is not to jump up and down and stamp your feet. Being "nonproductive" and inflammatory on SoE boards will result in deleted posts and punitive action. If your anecdotal experiences are so vastly different from everyone elses - parse it. Prove it. Anecdotal experiences are worth nothing unless backed up. In this situation, however - you wouldn't have much success in coming up with contradictory, factual proof - it's not there to find. I know - I looked hard. When the new and improved pet tanking modality goes live - I'll still enjoy my mage, beastlord, and necro as much as I ever did. They'll still tank at the level they should and still be capable - they just won't be overpowered like they are now.

Did you ever really stop to think why pet tanking was disabled in PoWar? It isn't because everyone hates pet classes - SoE has known for a while that using a pet to tank challenging content makes it trivial as long as the fight mechanics don't prohibit it. So how do they keep PoW challenging? By putting in mechanics that prohibit it.

Once pets are fixed, you'll have more than enough ammunition to have the current anti-pet mechanics stripped from the plane of war.

More talking out of your ass. You act as if you have some knowledge about something happening to pets. PoWar was designed the way it was to challenge everyone and to encourage grouping. It was meant to be a very difficult zone. Throwing in crazy mechanics and making use of the new aggro meter was all being discussed and put in place before anyone complained of pet power. Devs have been aware of pet capabilities for a long, long time and things like PoWar have been discussed for quite a few years now. It had zero to do with pet power and everything to do with fun mechanics and challenging the current playing paradigm.

[deadman1204]

Are you willing to give up your tanking goodies that mage pets don't get in order to get mitigation that our pets get?

Here's the thing. If we do that, we become a fraction of a class - pets without Masters. What percentage of your class power do you define the pet as encompassing?

Perhaps you can sweeten the deal for me a bit.

Throw in the relevant pet tanking "goodies", Mage+pet DPS, one-item gearing and the ability to hold agro over players in melee range. I would go with "yes".

You are making the assumption that pets tank as good as a warrior. Which is laughable at best.
1. Let see, you already do have the ability to hold agro over players in melee (which pets don't). Lacking this prohibts 50% of all classes from participating in the group in a meaningful way
2. You can handle adds. You have abilities to take WAY less damage than a pet does. Pets do not have the giant list of defensive abilities you do. There are a few tiny ones, and mages lose dps by using them.
3. You have AE agro if there are adds. Pets have ZERO ae agro.
4. Using your abilities in an intelligent way (not botting 4 other toons) a warrior can blow any mage pet away.

But we understand, its always eaiser to say the system is rigged than to say a class is challenging to play and takes more attention than people are willing to give it.

After all, warriors say that about mages all the time.