The nerf thread closed

[cicely]

Not everyone can be the best at everything. Magicians are behind wizards in burst DPS. Magicians are behind necromancers on sustained DPS as well as sustained mana regeneration. A magician fire pet is not as strong of a tank as a magician earth pet. The point is: someone is going to finish first, others are not. Once people start to accept that, then they will find much more happiness with life.

As far as my ear lier comment about warrior DPS, it used to be a consensus that 2h weapons were for DPS, 1h/shield was for tanking, and DW was inbetween. If the max standard DPS for a warrior should be 10,000 (random number) and the early EQ consensus takes place, then I think the following DPS acceptable levels should be:

2h = 10k
DW = 6666k
1h/shield = 3333k

Pretty silly, isn't it? I am sure warriors would gladly accept those numbers in today's game. About as silly as wanting to demand changes for the magician class in today's game. Magicians are in a good place in the game, lots of people balance their play style around a magician pet, and some subscriptions are around because of this. Warriors will still have their spot in the game, as will magicians.

[dreneth]

You're making the false assumption that Dreneth is concerned about what is accurate, not about his narrative.

I'm concerned that pet classes are about to be clipped by the nerfHammer and are focusing their efforts in the wrong places.

dreneth if you believe I only need a ear piece to be a mage then nothing you say carries any weight here, because you demonstrate your ignorance and anger

I hold no anger but I do have stake in the statistical imbalance between pets and tanks. Perhaps I'm mistaken and other items that you loot will modify your pet's tanking statistics?

You are making the assumption that pets tank as good as a warrior.

Assumptions are claims made without supporting evidence. An example of this would be suggesting that any player class can tank as well as an appropriate level/focused pet.

Sounds like you need to delete your tank and play a mage full time.

I prefer playing melee classes and I have many friends/guildmates that do as well. I can accept trading DPS for defense to fill this role, but it is improper for any non-tank entity that fills the tanking role defensively outclassing an equivalently progressed, player-operated tank.

[dreneth]

The point is: someone is going to finish first, others are not. Once people start to accept that, then they will find much more happiness with life.

Similarly should everyone understand their spot in the pecking order. This is where I inquired whether Magicians envision themselves as a DPS class or a tank class (didn't see any answers?)

As far as my ear lier comment about warrior DPS, it used to be a consensus that 2h weapons were for DPS, 1h/shield was for tanking, and DW was inbetween.

I cannot think of any time in the game when this was the case, however I invite you to continue this conversation over on TSW or the EQLive tank forums.

[deadman1204]

You're making the false assumption that Dreneth is concerned about what is accurate, not about his narrative.

I'm concerned that pet classes are about to be clipped by the nerfHammer and are focusing their efforts in the wrong places.

Do you even believe what you say? Thats utter BS Dre and you know it. You want mage pets nerfed.

You are making the assumption that pets tank as good as a warrior.

Assumptions are claims made without supporting evidence. An example of this would be suggesting that any player class can tank as well as an appropriate level/focused pet.

My proof is the entire nerf mage pet movement, and their bad data.

Sounds like you need to delete your tank and play a mage full time.

I prefer playing melee classes and I have many friends/guildmates that do as well. I can accept trading DPS for defense to fill this role, but it is improper for any non-tank entity that fills the tanking role defensively outclassing an equivalently progressed, player-operated tank.

If you even pretended to believe that, you would be actively arguing against warriors gaining more dps. In fact, the sony forums should be LITTERED with you're advocated a shield specialist nerf for the last several years. If warriors are tanks, why should they have dps?

Besides, we all know mages cannot fulfill a tank role in serious groups. Do they get ae agro? Do their pet get defensive abilities similar to NTTB? Do they have the ai to handle adds? Can players melee with a pet tank?

You're full of crap Dre.

[dreneth]

Do you even believe what you say? Thats utter BS Dre and you know it. You want mage pets nerfed.

My proof is the entire nerf mage pet movement, and their bad data.

Besides, we all know mages cannot fulfill a tank role in serious groups.

You're full of crap Dre.

Hmm, you make some well-reasoned and compelling arguments. I'll consider them and respond to these shortly.

the sony forums should be LITTERED with you're advocated a shield specialist nerf for the last several years.

Wait, what? Bad grammar no understand.

Do they get ae agro? (...) Do they have the ai to handle adds?

I'm not sure if you've asked for them, but this could probably be addressed with some simple positioning tools.

Do their pet get defensive abilities similar to NTTB?

NTTB was designed to partially offset lack of healing capacity. You can heal your pets.

[Bedavir]

I keep seeing people mentioning 'bad data'. How is data in the raw bad? With each post and parse I freely comment on the limitations of that parse, always in defense of the pets when it was due.

Raw data is neither 'good' nor 'bad'. It's simply true. The nuts and bolts and what you might consider good or bad comes in the interpretation and conclusions.

Does it factor in tank discs? Nope but we can easily calculate that after the fact.

Does it factor in pet owner abilities? Nope, but we can easily calculate that after the fact.

Make no mistake, pet classes have a not insignificant bag of tools to make their pet tank far better than the baseline. Fortify companion depending on the content you're facing is up for as much as 10 minutes out of every 15. Realistically on challenging content you're looking at 2-3 mins on a named or 5-8 minutes grinding trash depending on support, kill time, slows, stuns etc. that just one part of that bag of tricks though.

Knights self heal well - warriors cannot. Pet owners can heal their pets as powerfully if not more so than knights. Those melee block vies? They're up fairly frequently and are much more powerful than you'd care to admit.

Please don't insult my intelligence by saying you've got stalwart mitigation and nothing else. That is a bold faced lie. Like I posted in that thread, I solo'd roon with my beast lord over 30 minutes - no merc - using those heals, vies, and fortify companion - ended fight at 90 mana. I don't think you can find many raid geared knights that could boast that kind of tanking power and self preservation. Warrior would be dead a few ticks after fortitude wore off.

In a group situation with a healer (merc included) those spells, however aren't even needed - freeing you up to dps at will. On the odd chance that you did need them, you're sacrificing 4 spell casts a minute for those blocks - still more than enough time to pump out dps levels far beyond what all tanks and most group melee dps can manage.

It's a win/win for you. You're a dps class with a pocket tank better than a raid tank at raw ease of healing. Yes adds are a pain. Yes, melee can't do their thing. The last few expansions have shown, however, that this isn't a big problem 95-99% of the time. Groups and boxers adjust their choices and others get left high and dry.

There is no rational counter-argument.

Lol ... 'Bad' data

[Enkel]

We cannot come close to the ability a paladin has to heal themselves, nor can we heal our pet as well as a SK can while using Leech and Epic (not to mention those lifetaps). Beast soloing Roon/Shoon? I have watched several SK do that and watched a paladin do that. Don't understate the self healing of the knight classes, they're extremely powerful when played properly.

[Bedavir]

SK during epic? I will agree with you.

SK during leech? Again I will agree with you (albeit very short duration)

Putting VoD up with both of the aforementioned - again I will agree with you.

Once those are down?

Without epic/leech? Yes I'd wager that you actually can even as mages provide your pet comparable healing to what a knight can manage, or at least come very close. A paladin doing practically no dps and focusing only on self healing with available targeted healing will likely beat you out, but trust me when I say Roon in that case would wear said paladin out long before the paladin could kill Roon. The SK can heal fairly well with taps (active and passive) and therefore out-perform the paladin in terms of getting a chance to kill it - but those self heals won't keep up with the dps and spike potential. Been there, tried that.

Raw numerical healing is only part of that puzzle though. Even if the knight (raid or group geared) could manage more raw healing, they would be taking damage that is both above and beyond what your pet would on average - but also less safe damage in terms of healing. Those knights in comparable gear with max aa will be taking a veritable crap ton more total damage and be extremely more likely to take bad rounds - and those bad rounds back to back. In the case that your raw numerical healing is less than the knight, that's a moot point because the knight will be taking much more dangerous damage (more of it and in more dangerous ways). The net result even if the total amount healed is LESS is that you can more effectively heal your sturdy pet's predictable damage (and inferior incomming damage) than a knight could possibly heal themselves?

Care to prove me wrong?

Prove it.

Unfortunately for you, you can't - I already more or less proved the opposite with my "bad" data. Don't forget for a moment that I have both a max aa paladin and SK in capped out group gear. I'm missing some of the "best available" augments on them - but you're talking laughably insignificant upgrades from a power curve scale.

Yikes!

[Enkel]

If you don't think that an Sk or Paladin can solo it, that is fine. It has been done, probably by plenty. The sk has a much easier time than the paladin does because the SK can heal via epic, then leech curse, then deflection. All this time they're in visage dropping a respectable amount of damage. But, guess what!? They can be even more clever and kill mobs until they get a mortal coil proc and continue the slog fest even longer (get MC proc, then rush roon/shoon). I have done quite a bit of parsing, and looked over your parsing. I ran many similar tests, and against multiple mobs. I find all the points moot (they're raw analytical facts, which I found varying results in certain situations). Demean my intelligence if you want, I could care less. My college degree doesn't mean jack smurf since that is a matter of dedication, but I have gone through the "normal" means of mathematical study; if you believe I don't understand parse data and statistical analysis that is also fine (accounting/ calc was so fun!!!!).

Two, and this has nothing to do with raw mitigation, but I have never seen you in action. I don't know your skill level. For knights that can make a huge impact on their ability to solo. The paladin I watched do it has been a paladin main for years, and I was extremely impressed with his feat (albeit it took forever and a day). The fact that I've watched several Sk's do it vs 1 paladin shows the gap between the knight's ability to self heal and dps (the SK has a giant advantage). But, there are several other classes that can replicate this feat, and they're not just pet class (you might be surprised which other classes can do this).

Three, your comment on "care to prove me wrong" just shows you're someone with an agenda, and spamming our boards is quite annoying. You have the steel warrior to go to, you're out, seemingly, with a vengeance trying to troll these forums (no one wants you here but other tanks, to why stay around?). I will admit, not everyone in this community parses. Does that mean they don't understand the data? No. Does it mean they understand the data? No. But making absolute statements as you have proves nothing. Vora is a very intelligent individual, and his counter points are valid within reason (read his points for reference). Raw mitigation is raw mitigation. Health is health. There are a plethora of abilities that all tanks have access to to utilize tanking. Warriors show the least "solo-ability" when it comes to soloing trash/killing named because they lack the self healing of the knights. Now, in the group game this creates a giant gap between the knights and the warriors. I will admit, I'll gladly take a knight over a warrior any day (if skill level is even). With a knight, especially SK, I can pull 5-8 mobs at a time and my group can AE down the bunch and move on (this used to be more practical before the changes to SK's). With a warrior, this is possible, but not as optimal.

Your point about having a paladin and sk means nothing to me. Outside raw parse data there is a level of skill, whether people like to believe it's there or not. That is why we have people at the "top" of a class, and people, some, that strive to be there (some couldn't care less). Our ability to heal our pet like a paladin is an absolute joke, which you're inferring that we are comparable. If you want a pet class that has tremendous pet healing you would want to look towards the beastlords, their pet healing is far superior to ours (they heal for a significant amount more than us, and their heals are quicker casting than ours). Do I think their healing should be nerfed? No.

I have every class in the game at level 100, and max AA. Does that make me an expert on them? Again, no. Stating you have a class at max level means nothing to me.

Back on topic, I don't know how valid your parse data is. I generally don't think people go out to show false data, but it happens more often than most realize (usually it's highly skewed data that is not reliable). The prior comment will probably send you on a tirade of some sorts, ending with you explaining I am laughable. Again, that is fine. I did my parsing, saw the results, and sent them off to the needed parties. I don't spam the forums slinging accusations of stupidity, and unjust recourse to all those who oppose.

What I will say as this, both parties have been downplaying their ability to tank content. Each side is so biased that they're stating isolated scenario's to try to convey why a situation should be just. It's an absolute shame that this community (everquest) has devolved into to a level of "They're to stronk, give me this!" "Nerf them please!". Seriously, some people are so covetous of what others have it's downright depressing. Can our pets tank well? Yeah, they're great at what they do. Can my warrior/knights tank well? Yeah, they're awesome.

My pet is my shield. It protects me. When I go to kill mobs my pet tanks for me. I am not a necromancer, I cannot snare a mob/root rot it. Do I want that ability? No, I like unique characteristics that differentiate the class, and I am against complete class homogenization. I believe, and I know this for me, class homogenization is part of why EQ has lost its flavor. It's something that is happening, and will continue to happen, but class blending it something, in most cases, that slowly ruins EQ for me. When I play other MMO's (I raid in several) I feel the classes are more distinct, and have a uniqueness about them. Here, not as much.

But, since this is a back and forth, let me ask this question of you (and am interested in what kinda answer I get, though I assume I'll get a short answer, followed by an explanation why things need to change). Can a Warrior fulfill his role in group content? Can a Warrior tank raids? In my opinion the answer to both those, would be, yes. Now, because the answer is yes does that mean that boosts should not be given? No, that is absolute smurf. NTTB never should have been nerfed, it was absolute stupidity (though on zek it was broken beyond belief, but do we/have we still balanced things around pvp?) But if you pretend that you're not trying to get pets nerfed, read over some of your numerous posts while in a state of mental clarity. You, and many others, are trying to get pets nerfed. You're trying to get warriors boosted, but also get pets nerfed. Getting pets nerfed does nothing for you, the buffs that you "need" will.

[Tweelis]

Bedavir

Here are some raw numbers; take them for what they're worth.

I use to walk to the store 5x a week. There is an intersection where I was nearly ran over 7 times due to drivers not paying attention to the road (texting on the phone, reading a magazine/newspaper, etc.). Mini-van/SUV driving soccer moms accounted for 6 out of the 7 incidents. Now I'm not saying soccer moms are bad drivers but the numbers are impossible to ignore.

None of the drivers were teens.
None of the drivers were senior citizens.
One of the drivers was a male city police officer.

This is raw data, nothing has been fudged. There is no ignoring raw data. I do not want soccer moms banned from the road or even forced to take a defensive driving course but rather it would be nice if senior citizens and teens were given equal treatment.

So now that I've given a completely factual set of numbers do you agree with me?