The nerf thread closed

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Tweelis
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Tweelis »

P.S. I was a journalism major for one semester way back in college. Nearly all of my professors agreed that when presenting information/data the author:

always has to provide accurate information....never lie.
must present the information in a way to invoke an emotional response.
may freely omit information that counters what they are trying to convey.

After one semester I decided to switch majors due to what my professors were teaching.

While at school I took a basic probability and statistics course then an advanced P&S course. One of the basic ideas for both courses was how to collect and analyze data. We used real world examples from many sources. During my advanced course our professor discussed how to manipulate and present data. Just like my journalism professors dictated we were taught to never lie but we were shown how to just not use data that countered our argument.

So why am I spouting all this nonsense about my college glory days? Basically to say I'm calling you out on your crap!

You have an agenda. Fine, have an agenda. I (and many others on this board) also have an agenda which is to make sure we remain viable assets to groups and raids and can still solo. I refuse to allow magicians to become vending machine coh bots again without a fight.

smurf off and go whine somewhere else!
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dreneth
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by dreneth »

Tweelis wrote: I was nearly ran over 7 times due to drivers not paying attention to the road (texting on the phone, reading a magazine/newspaper, etc.)

So now that I've given a completely factual set of numbers do you agree with me?
Distracted driving has already been nerfed in my state. As of this year it is a ticketable offense here. I support this nerf.
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deadman1204
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by deadman1204 »

Edited response because really, this entire thread is just feeding a pair of trolls.
The sooner they starve, the better
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Sillaen
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Sillaen »

Why are we feeding the trolls? Just let them starve already.
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Bedavir
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Bedavir »

Feeding the trolls?

You guys started this thread, not me. You guys were the ones bad-mouthing in this thread, not me.


As an aside, why is everyone suddenly bringing up their educational pedigree? Is that relevant to this discussion? If you want to compare irrelevant levels of education I'd be happy to oblige.
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dreneth
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by dreneth »

deadman1204 wrote:Edited response because really, this entire thread is just feeding a pair of trolls.
The sooner they starve, the better
Cute, but I'm not the one who is playing dirty here.
I've noticed you need to be careful of certain posters. Like Dre - who will report any post counter to what he says.
Sadly, its an effective way to control discussions. Gets all contrary voices removed.
Outright lies in the above quote were what brought me here in an attempt to get everyone playing nicer and behaving more constructively. I didn't expect to be welcomed with open arms, but if posts could be taken at face value that would be a good first step.
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Bedavir
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Bedavir »

Enkel,

You indicated that you have done some work parsing as well as have looked over mine. You indicate varying results in certain situations. Would you be willing to share that with us so we can look at it together?

Point 2: You are correct, you have never seen me in action and do not know my skill level. I suppose I could either tell you I'm the best player or the worst player in game - neither would amount to a hill of beans because either answer would be both entirely subjective (vs objective) or completely false (a lie). I'm a stranger on the internet, and you have no reason to trust my own opinion of how well I play. My opinion of my level of skill is that it's generally very good and better than most out there. There are some classes that I am admittedly bad at (I'm a terrible berserker and a modest druid at best; I still have a lot to learn about the beastlord). To be honest, though, many people's opinion of themselves is often bloated and unrealistic. I wouldn't expect you to believe my answer at face value any more than I would expect myself to believe any other random person's opinion of themself at face value. So point 2 isn't really a valid point of discussion.

Point 3: My comment "care to prove me wrong" was born out of frustration. This was not a baiting challenge, it was a legitimate request to prove me wrong. I want you to prove me wrong, because if I'm wrong I would like to know. I came to the table with opinion and interpretation ... but I also come to the table with data. I have yet to see the people who quickly belittle my "bad data" come forth with anything at all outside of anecdotal experiences and opinions that are at times completely disconnected from reality.

"Back on topic": No this will not send me on a tirade. I am a generally distrustful person myself, and if somebody is insisting something that doesn't make sense to me - I verify it. Trust but verify vs don't trust and verify. I ran these parses because my anecdotal experiences watching my pet tank and watching the hits was that they were low - far lower on average than on my tanks. I ran the parses to eliminate my own observation bias. I trusted myself, but I verified my experiences with measurable data. The parses are valid and the methods were simple. You can trust that they are valid, but if you don't want to believe me that they are valid please feel free to test them out. You shouldn't take anyone at face value. This is why I clearly stated gear level, methods, mobs etc. For the pets in particular, one of those parses is ~11 hours long with >52,000 "hits" to even out the RNG. It shouldn't take you more than a couple of minutes to verify that the data is truthful.

Your questions:

1) Can a warrior fulfill his role in group content? Yes.
2) Can a warrior tank raids? Yes

^ Honest answers

The questions you didn't ask:

1) Can a warrior fulfill his role in group content as well as a self-healing knight? No.
2) Can a warrior - the best amongst player classes with no self healing - mitigate as well as a knight? They do it better.
3) Can a warrior - the best amongst player classes with no self healing - mitigate as well as a pet? Not even close
4) Can a warrior do his job as well as a pet? Bad question given the variables we all know, so let's ask it differently.
5) Can a warrior do things for a group that a pet cannot do? Yes.
6) Can a pet stand up to potentially lethal melee more consistently and safely than a warrior? Unfortunately, yes.
7) Can a warrior stand up to hard hitting content as well as a pet? No.
8) Is a warrior as easy to heal as a pet with neither using discs? No
9) Is a warrior using abilities discs as easy to heal as a pet who's owner is not using any abilties? Yes, arguably easier if you stack it all on for the duration of those discs (LS up 30% of the time).
10) Is a warrior using discs as easy to heal as a pet owner who is using all of their pet defensive abilities? No - the pet under this circumstance doesn't need an external healer apart from it's owner. Should the mage choose not to use these tools and thus rely on external healing, the mage is free to do it's 'dps class' caliber of dps. The warrior never has the option - ever - to do the reverse.

Now for the subjective question:

1) Do you find it fair from a class balance standpoint that the sidekick of a ranged dps class can do the fundamental job (surviving) better with group focus than a raid geared warrior can accomplish?

You know my answer to this question, and I likely know what your response is as well. Our answers/opinions are irrelevant. In the court of public opinion (that thread on SoE that got locked), the general consensus was no. But, their answers/opinoins are also irrelevant.

The opinions that matter are those of the Devs who watched it silently play out.

The coming weeks/months will tell us what their verdict on the topic is/was.
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Baramos
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Baramos »

Brother.

Don't any of those crybabies realize that a pet is a SPELL? It is a spell for which a graphic has been created.

In Necro kiting heyday, we would run all over PoFire kiting monstrous mobs who would destroy us. Can you imagine if their snare-equivalent had a pet type graphic? This snare pet graphic would be taking "hits" while rendering the mob so sluggish as to not catch up with PCs.

Oh Noz. Their snare or snare-equivalent pet is tanking better than a warrior.

Same argument with root. Root is a spell. The spell keeps a mob stationary while mobs get hammered with (whatever).

What about mez? A spell. Oh noz. The mez pet would completely tie the mob's arms up so he could strike absolutely NO damage while other mobs are dealt with. Heck - you wouldn't even need to heal that offtanking pet.

Hey. Tanks. Stop crying about what your class can't do with respect to a SPELL and work on getting your own issues fixed. You sound ridiculous.

And please spare the "scientific data." I'm an engineer. Your "scientific data" and controls for your experiments are LOUSY and mean nothing when taken in the proper context.

The numbers look oh-so impressive when coupled with graphs and the harrumph and "analyses", but what you really are doing amounts to nothing more than poking holes in the air with your fingers.

And speaking of a reasonable context it is NOT the magically made-up "passive mitigation" baloney.

In the final analysis, there are no "spells" or "armor". There is only a set of equations married with lookup tables and probability functions which dictate "damage". You guys are crying because you don't like the balance of your equations/probability function compared to another class.

That's fine. But don't compare a SPELL to your defensive capacity unless you are willing to do it for any other spell which has the effect of nullifying damage from an NPC. Otherwise you are hypocrites.

Work on yourselves.

Quit crying about a SPELL.

Brother.
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dreneth
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by dreneth »

Baramos wrote:Can you imagine if their snare-equivalent had a pet type graphic?
Can you imagine if named and raid bosses didn't summon?
Can you imagine if mobs could be beaten down without breaking mezz?
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Baramos
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Baramos »

Very nice evasion for someone who claims to be simply trying to have cordial and reasonable conversations.

Replying to a post with a non-sequitur question is a facile and immature tactic.

You are grinding an axe which doesn't even exist.

Your arguments are puerile and don't deserve any attention except that you have managed to stir up a frenzy with specious and out-of-context "data."

Your screeds on the board here are not welcome, and the ones on the Sony board are contemptuous. The agenda behind your "gee-golly" demeanor is obvious and that tactic is disgusting.

Screeds disguised as discussion are the worst kind of deceit.

You should Leave this board.

You are wearing clown-shoes and it should be obvious that you are not welcome here.

Take your squeaky-nose with you.
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