Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

A home for posts concerning previous expansions.
User avatar
nahseev
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:30 am

Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by nahseev »

Voragath wrote:You are forgetting that even if most guilds DID ban pets, that's an argument for more nuke changes. If you can't have a pet out, what's the point of beefing those? And what's a death count? Where each death powers up a mob? If so, your guild is completely retarded and just a few peeps using swarms would show them that pets don't count; not to mention, those events count PC deaths. However, with upper guilds pets are not a problem. Most of the raiding mages' problems lie in these upper guilds where the huge gap is seriously noticeable. Mid-tier guilds, like mine, don't see such a drastic gap if they even see one at all. Making a change that looks good to those not at the top usually does not help those at the top. There is just NO WAY a pet change in dps is gonna fix that gap unless you just make pets so seriously OP that the group game is utterly trivialized. Spells are the only avenue we have available because of that and the 3 reasons I stated in another thread. A glaring thing to note is that pet dps just doesn't ramp up, its slow to be attained and we need to be able to burst the damage.

The necro dot check is not new. The "raid boss" flag has been around since TSS according to the devs. All they did was make the raid boss mobs resistant to these spells, probably through another limiter on the dot. Alla is not up atm so I can't see if they did or not.
I couldn't disagree with you anymore. Pet bans isn't an argument for more nuke changes, it's an argument for greater utility from the pet so they can't get banned. It's not an increase in dps from the pet too, it's an increase in dps linked to the pet that I think is the way to go. I hope everyone understands the difference between linking abilities requiring the need to have a pet up vs outright increasing a pet's power.

No my guild isn't retarded, just our bans. So often players screw up and they get a warning. If a player with a pet screws up controlling the pet they get everyone a ban. Events with death counts receive bans not because of pets dying but from a fear of pets messing something up like agro or position where players not paying attention start dropping.

I don't consider my guild high end cause we don't have T4 on farm yet. Our current content is a mix of T3 mostly and a little of T4. The argument for a dps increase really isn't about overall dps increase. Parse rubbish mobs and you'll see we do fairly well in comparison to a lot of classes. Where the complaint lies is in our ability to burn mobs. I don't like having as much timed burning as we do in raiding but that's a content design call and not a class adjusting thing. I want to have to work for my dps increase and the more I have to work for it the more I would hope they are able to give us. Throw in recourses, pet maintenance, and other things that we need to stay on top of. Although not optimal you can pretty much bind raid burns to two hotkeys for our class. Not hot buttons provided in game but hotkeys available on most current gaming hardware. (I use all logitech g13, g15, g35, g500) You bind all your buffs, aa's, clicks, etc on the first hotkey between recasts mapping out the timers and everything so they should all cast in a specific order minimizing wasted time. Then on the second hotkey you map out your spell rotation. When the first hotkey is done cycling through you just switch to the second hotkey and you got auto rotation. You can set that second hotkey as a toggle and guess what, now you become a spectator only having to worry about agro if even that. This is far from fun. Make us juggle recourses that works with one spell but maybe decreases another spell. Maybe add a proc to pet that does no dmg but can help modify a specific spell. All these types of changes goes beyond just a simple increase in dps but are things I think to consider moving forward.

The necro change is new cause I don't recall any other thing ever being raid restricted. There have been other checks made to other abilities but this is the first I ever heard of it checking a raid mob flagging to take effect. Maybe it's not what we think and they just gave the dot another resist check and added that resist only to raid mobs. In either case they are opening up to the idea of having raid specific abilities. Maybe it's a one off situation but I'm curious to see where this goes.
User avatar
svenalo
Arch Magus
Posts: 665
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:35 am

Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by svenalo »

nahseev wrote:Pet bans isn't an argument for more nuke changes, it's an argument for greater utility from the pet so they can't get banned.
Pet bans are an argument supporting the fact that some people are either rooted in historical bias, clueless, insane, playing the blame game, or down right lazy. And as those are the reasons they get banned there is no amount of utility increase you can make to overcome that. All you would have to do now to prove the majority of things are not pet related is use fire pets which root themselves...and watch your guild's chaos continue.
User avatar
Piemastaj
Arch Magus
Posts: 817
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:40 am

Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Piemastaj »

If your guild bans pets it is retarded plain and simple. Either thru recruitment choices or dumb raid ldrs. SOME events make having no pets easier I have not done 1 event that has to remove pets in HOT. SS1 at the end is the only real event in HOT and its still doable with smart owners.
Image

"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."—Douglas Adams
User avatar
nahseev
Newbie
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:30 am

Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by nahseev »

If other classes had spells that required pets or pets had some other utility that would benefit the raid then yes we could use that to overcome that obstacle. Maybe give them malo aura with a dmg mod intact.
It doesn't have to benefit only us but let it just give us a greater advantage cause we own the pet. If you want only our benefit how about a spell focus aura from pet procs that only trigger when resisted so it could use the necro dot check as well. Just make the aura an aa and give it a long recast so it can be a burn ability vs a sustainable one. I'm not really serious about these suggestions since I just came up with them on the spot but you can see that there could be something that would give us the increase we want and still require the pet without increasing pet power. I don't think we belong int he top dps positions for every raid either. I think we should vary in comparison to other classes from where we are now to topping the list if all the stars align properly.

Thornbustle. What's ironic about it is that is where I got my current pet focus from. Range pets is the answer to the ds but a few necros used the archer pets and the mob leashed when the tank dropped. All pets got banned after that run. I tried explaining summoned companion with the Fire Pet but they didn't want to listen. Library was the next raid pets got banned due to pathing and the way we did the raid. UF had more events were pets weren't allowed. As mentioned event 2 in Convorteum but also on TFC.

This thread is being derailed because two subjects are being discussed where it should only be about raid dps. Pets being linked to dps upgrades belongs in this thread. Pets being banned on raids etc shouldn't so lets squash this. It doesn't matter what my guild does and doesn't do. The fact is I'd like any possible mag burst abilities to require (not from) a pet.

***Edited to remove the person I quoted so this doesn't get dragged on even more.
***Edited again to add last part.
Last edited by nahseev on Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Piemastaj
Arch Magus
Posts: 817
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 1:40 am

Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Piemastaj »

Basing burst abilities off of pets requires a lot of coding work to be done. Unless your suggesting another of many line. And the last thing on banning pets: Pets are roughly b/t 35 and 50% of our DPS. If that is't requiring pets on raids idk what is.

IMHO our best burst idea will come thru us not our pets. Pets require tons of coding and last beta pets weren't even fully tuned when beta was closed.
Image

"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."—Douglas Adams
User avatar
Malleria
Arch Mage
Posts: 327
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 5:18 pm

Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Malleria »

nahseev wrote:The fact is I'd like any possible mag burst abilities to require (not from) a pet.
No ty :)
User avatar
Voragath
Grand Summoner
Posts: 1165
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:32 pm

Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Voragath »

Malleria wrote:
nahseev wrote:The fact is I'd like any possible mag burst abilities to require (not from) a pet.
No ty :)
I agree, this has been beat into the dirt as well. We all saw how well this worked for beasts and it was a bloody mess and hamstrung them for years. I don't even want to get within a million yards of that.
Image
User avatar
Voragath
Grand Summoner
Posts: 1165
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:32 pm

Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Voragath »

nahseev wrote: The necro change is new cause I don't recall any other thing ever being raid restricted. There have been other checks made to other abilities but this is the first I ever heard of it checking a raid mob flagging to take effect. Maybe it's not what we think and they just gave the dot another resist check and added that resist only to raid mobs. In either case they are opening up to the idea of having raid specific abilities. Maybe it's a one off situation but I'm curious to see where this goes.
You are getting it backwards. The "raid boss" flag was implemented in TSS and is not visible player side and not all raid mobs have this. Also, trash may have this and what we "think" is a boss may not be flagged. Sure, you could do trial and error but kind of silly and you'd end up making countless lists. It's not a thing that will help us but a tool to use against us. It would be one thing if all raid bosses or all raid mobs had this flag but they apparently implemented this flag long ago for other reasons. This is not a thing to latch onto since its implementation is far from consistent. In essence, this would create far more problems than it would solve.

Now, if you are asking a new flag be made, then that's a good idea too; but it would be some serious work to convince the devs to make a new flag since, iirc, they hate doing this. You'd be better off taking the idea of a flesh to summons spell that makes a mob susceptible to the annihilate spells and turn summoned then getting those abilities beefed up. The problem inherent there is that druids can then jump on the dps wagon and will the devs be ok with the druids getting a substantial bump?
Image
User avatar
Magebaggery
Trial Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Magebaggery »

I love the discussion going on.

I noticed the fire pet ideas. I think that is a great idea.

Now we had a spell line that affected only our fire pets (Blazing Stance- http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?i ... ource=Live), and it kind of died off. How about resurrecting that spell line and adding a damage modifier (spelldmg) to the line, that increases the spell damage (and therefore the dps) of the fire pet? In addition to that, how about allowing mage self buffs to hit our pets, in addition to group buffs? That way we could give our fire pet Twincast, Fire Core, etc, that should certainly boost pet dps for a burn situation.
User avatar
Malleria
Arch Mage
Posts: 327
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 5:18 pm

Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Malleria »

Blazing Stance was made obsolete when they changed fire pets to not use mana to cast their 'spells'. That was essentially the only point of the spell, since otherwise fire pets drained their mana in a minute. Unfortunately that change is also what stops things like twincast, fire core etc from affecting the fire pets spells. Nothing will mod the fire pet's nuke anymore. It's more of an innate ability the pet uses than a spell it casts.

Ideally another remake of the fire pet would be nice, where it does have access to those kinds of mods. It'd open up a new area in pet abilities, possibly making the fire pet competitive with water. But it's unlikely we'll see any major revamps at this point :(
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests