deadman1204 wrote:I think Calebe has a point. The changes shouldn't be focused on things like clash(raid only spell) and raid level focuses. They only affect raid mages.
The changes we need should be more systemic. They should affect ALL mages. Since raid mages would have better focuses, the changes would proportionally effect them more.
How is clash a raid only spell? It requires at the max end 15 pets to max it out. Not to mention fairly certain any 'raid change' that we asked for, for clash was an additional nuke spot when X amount of things were met. We can not focus on group focus either because it does drop in-game and currently group focus is better then HoTs raid gear. Any changes that I have personally advocated will never hurt the grouping mage. As to the focuses, raid mages need more then those. And as a result of recent events you can not give group mages what raid mages need or else we will be in god mode like no other. I am already scared of what will happen when those poisons go live.
And I forgot to mention this, but a side note for the rogue boost: They have raid only poisons and they get boosts to other things with more rogues in the raid.
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if your soloing or grouping, there will probably be 1-2 pets on the mob. Why would you ever even mem the spell?
Its only worthwhile to cast (damage and efficiency) when there are more pets than you would see in a group.
well, is it too late for them to scale back what rogues are getting? Or are we panicing about rogues even though most melees are getting similar things? I don't think of this as nerfing - they don't have it yet. But they will be getting something unbalancingly powerful if they are the only class getting that level of boost.
Also, I don't mean forget about clash - but I'm pointing out it is only applicable to the raid setting
Last edited by deadman1204 on Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The whole thing is being done piecemeal and bass ackwards. First you have to decide what DPS number mages should be sitting at - we have yet to hear what they think this number should be (in fact there should be a target number for each class, perhaps one for burst and one for sustained), and without that number (or numbers) you cannot hope to figure out what to do to get there. Second, you then have to decide what ratio should come from the main pet and what should come from everything else. Once you have those two pieces of information, it is pretty simple math to determine what boosts need to be given to what parts of the equation given that PJ has sent them parses up the wazoo. Give it in some straight forward manner, make it some gimmick, whatever...but it should be straight forward.
What makes it hard is fitting it in with the mana regen problems and our other issues, the problem of other classes so out of whack on the scale as well, the problem of whether that overpowers the mage versus group content or not, and so on.
deadman1204 wrote:well, is it too late for them to scale back what rogues are getting? Or are we panicing about rogues even though most melees are getting similar things? I don't think of this as nerfing - they don't have it yet. But they will be getting something unbalancingly powerful if they are the only class getting that level of boost.
Also, I don't mean forget about clash - but I'm pointing out it is only applicable to the raid setting
One of the most common things I see devs say is that they don't want to fix DPS issues by nerfing another class. IMHO they have let this get completely out of hand by not fully understanding the game. Yes I know that sounds bad but I see no other way to explain it.
I tend to also like to fix DPS issues by fixing the weak class over nerfs. DPS nerfs suck. I'd hate to have it happen to us and I don't want to do it to another class. If they had just upped our DPS the way they said they would this wouldn't be near the issue.
svenalo wrote:The whole thing is being done piecemeal and bass ackwards. First you have to decide what DPS number mages should be sitting at - we have yet to hear what they think this number should be (in fact there should be a target number for each class, perhaps one for burst and one for sustained), and without that number (or numbers) you cannot hope to figure out what to do to get there. Second, you then have to decide what ratio should come from the main pet and what should come from everything else. Once you have those two pieces of information, it is pretty simple math to determine what boosts need to be given to what parts of the equation given that PJ has sent them parses up the wazoo. Give it in some straight forward manner, make it some gimmick, whatever...but it should be straight forward.
What makes it hard is fitting it in with the mana regen problems and our other issues, the problem of other classes so out of whack on the scale as well, the problem of whether that overpowers the mage versus group content or not, and so on.
hehe, if you look back 6-9 months ago you will find like 5 diff threads that have this very info listed. PJ and I parsed this out for weeks and had very solid numbers. I *PERSONALLY* had data from many of the top 10 guilds with DPS averages for almost all of the core DPS classes. I not only posted this very same information on this board, but also on EQ live and sent in via PM's to multi devs.
They can't say they didn't have enough information to make a good solid upgrade to mages this go around. They had so much information (both that they requested and we supplied as part of our proof that mages were weak DPS) its unreal and should have been plenty.
Vora is well aware of the fact this information was being collected and sent in to the devs.
deadman1204 wrote:well, is it too late for them to scale back what rogues are getting? Or are we panicing about rogues even though most melees are getting similar things? I don't think of this as nerfing - they don't have it yet. But they will be getting something unbalancingly powerful if they are the only class getting that level of boost.
Also, I don't mean forget about clash - but I'm pointing out it is only applicable to the raid setting
That again is not correct. You get 9 pets from host, you get 2 ruthless servants, 1 servant of Ro, and your regular pet. Now if u add in even 1 BL or mage your at the max for Strike. Or you can use cloth cap which is another 5 pets. And it is easily 1 of our best nukes with pets on the mob. If you add in added DPS as well it becomes even more potent. It is not meant to be used on every fight, just burns but it is far from pointless in the group game. It isn't always used in the raid game either.
And as to the rogue issue, rogues are getting the same patch that every class is getting. Rogues in my guild are estimating 130k burns when they get geared and such with the new patch.
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and the rest of the time if you don't have all your swarm pets up, and don't happen to be grouped with one of a handful of classes that also make lots of pets?
What if your a mage without 3kAA+ that doesn't have gobs of swarm pets at their disposal? Or do not have the cloth cap? Where speaking about balancing a spell around thousands of AAs and specific items. Once you do that, were wasting our time.
My point is, this spell is very situational outside of raids at best.
If your not in a raid, 9x out of 10 you will be better off using a different spell
And the rogue part is scary.
Last edited by deadman1204 on Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
please don't think I'm saying don't fix clash. My original point was it's an example of a change that will only effect part of the class, not all of it
deadman1204 wrote:and the rest of the time if you don't have all your swarm pets up, and don't happen to be grouped with one of a handful of classes that also make lots of pets?
What if your a mage without 3kAA+ that doesn't have gobs of swarm pets at their disposal? Or do not have the cloth cap? Where speaking about balancing a spell around thousands of AAs and specific items. Once you do that, were wasting our time.
My point is, this spell is very situational outside of raids at best.
If your not in a raid, 9x out of 10 you will be better off using a different spell
And the rogue part is scary.
It is hardly thousands of AAs is my point. You need rank 3 of Host of the Elements (9 pets), you need Servant of Ro rank 1, you need Ruthless servant, and a regular pet. You only need 15 pets for the 5th nuke, you can get 10 pets np by yourself for the first 4 nukes. It would be our best spell in terms of mana and DMG on a named. Not using it on a named is not very smart. And on raids, it only gets used all the time because of the way it fits in our weave (.8 second cast time), it is not used all the time because it is always maximum. If your not meming it you need to be. It is far from an upgrade only for raid mages, and thinking of it like that is a bad mindset. An upgrade for only raid mages would be a Player Character only Strike of Many.
The amount of AAs you need is probably around 50 or less.
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