NDA Lifted

[Piemastaj]

One problem I see with HoT was: raid bosses seemed to be very fast fights, which means the only dps stat that made much difference was the 90-120 sec burn dps, of which the mage was not very good.

I am hearing that maybe VoA bosses are going to take more time to kill, requiring not just a 2 minute burn, but 4-5 minutes, or more, of burning to take down raid bosses. If this is true, then maybe 90 second burns are not so important anymore. Maybe total DPS for longer time periods is a better judge of raid desirability.

SOE can't tune every class to be champs at a 90 second burn. Maybe mages true strength should not be a 90 second burn, but rather, maybe we should be tops in, perhaps, 3-4 minute total dps.

I personally always thought, wiz should win 90 second burn, mage should win 3-4 minute burn, and necro should win on burns over 5 minutes. If SoE did have various lengths of raid boss fights, where different classes would shine because of their inherent damage output/mana regen abilities, that would cure alot of the class envy we are seeing today.

Maybe melee classes should fit into similar categories. Maybe a rogue should win at 90 second dps, maybe berserker/monk at 3-4 minutes, and maybe rangers at 5 minutes or more.

These are just some thoughts I had regarding current DPS problems/class envy. Unfortunately, even though wiz and necro might fit the above scenario, mage probably still needs alot of help if we were to take top caster dps in the 3-4 minute category. In fact, I don't think mages can come close at any time interval to being top dps'ers.

If I were designing the game, that is the way I would try to tailor the dps.

Also, according to some peoples definition of "burn", it refers to only the highest dps possible once all disciplines/AAs activated. I am using burn to mean the total maximum DPS possible during the specified time period, even though our AAs do not necessarily last the 3-4 minutes to which I am referring.

To me, hearing that a rogue did 90k dps for 90 seconds does not mean much, unless I can also know what that same rogue did in a 3-4 minute fight, as well as a fight of over 5 minutes. Then we can see what classes real strengths are, who is over-powered, and who needs help.

Your mind-set is SUSTAINED. Which loosely means: How much DMG you can do for a period of time generally over 2minutes. To me that is the only thing that matters in terms of my DPS.

The problem with the huge burns is: They are doing 90,000 DMG per second. If they can hold that up for a 120 seconds that is roughly 10.8mil DMG in 2 minutes. Which basically means a heavy burn will set you up quite nicely for your sustained, granted your Damage per second will dip, but having such a high burn means that dip takes quite a bit longer to be actually noticeable in DPS terms. The heavy burns are not end all be all, but they make doing sustained 10 times easier. They also make your sustained look so much better.

As to the caster issue we have no niche. We lose on the 90 to 120 second burns to wizards. We lose on the 2+minute 'sustained' fights to necromancers. Which it is my understanding that is where we are meant to be. However, wizards just got I believe a 70% decrease in mana costs on their Burn and sustained discs. Which will inevitably mean their sustained is a lot higher, because they will be able to keep their mana up for a longer period of time. Necros also are receiving a burst increase with December patch. I am unsure how much of an increase it is, but it is an increase. I find it hard to believe (no I do not have parses), that our December patch will be equal to what wizards are getting off of their discs mana-wise. We are only getting Pet poisons, Crit chance AAs, flurry added to FBO in terms of DPS, and slightly more mana back per rod.

Generally Burn is anywhere from 40 to 120 seconds. That is when most classes start losing their big burn discs and rely solely on their weapons or spells to continue doing their DMG. 2+minutes is generally considered the Sustained portion of just about every fight. 5+ minutes is pretty much sustained the the max, no1 should have any discs up of real significance so it is solely based on you and your ADPS to boost your #s.

[deadman1204]

there are 3 basic ways to have a mid-fight dps peak
1. the burst dps classes fall off due to low mana or all disc down allowing you to catch up
- this probably will not to be very extreme this expansion
2. Your dps continues ramping up and doesn't slow down until the 4+ minute mark when you suffer mana issues or all abilities down
3. Your steady dps averages higher over 5 minutes than the burst classes does

If a rogue bursts for 90k for 90 sec then drops to 75k afterwards, in 4 minutes that is an average of 80.5k dps. For a mage to average 81k dps over 4 minutes but not peak until the 3-4 minute mark means we will have to
1. Have a peak around 90k that lasts for 90 seconds but takes while to hit
- we don't have abilities that ramp up like this
2. have continues 81k dps for 4-5 minutes straight that then falls
- more likely but should it fall off? if it lowers much, our long term dps tanks compared to melees

[dorfillya]

I am not saying, that the way I think it should be is the way it is going to be. I did parses in beta, and have looked at the upcoming AAs we are to get, and I think we are severely underpowered in raid DPS. I am just giving my 2 cents on how the game designers should think about different classes, and how to differentiate strengths and weaknesses of each class, which would, in my opinion, make for a more fair game, decreasing class unbalance, or, class envy. I know the game will never be fully and completely balanced, but, everyone basing their needs according to 90 second parses, does not do us any good either.

[dorfillya]

........If a rogue bursts for 90k for 90 sec then drops to 75k afterwards, in 4 minutes that is an average of 80.5k dps. For a mage to average 81k dps over 4 minutes but not peak until the 3-4 minute mark means we will have to
1. Have a peak around 90k that lasts for 90 seconds but takes while to hit
- we don't have abilities that ramp up like this
2. have continues 81k dps for 4-5 minutes straight that then falls
- more likely but should it fall off? if it lowers much, our long term dps tanks compared to melees

I really don't know rogue dps stats, can the rogue that did 90k, have a sustained 75k dps with no disciplines or endurance left?

[Piemastaj]

........If a rogue bursts for 90k for 90 sec then drops to 75k afterwards, in 4 minutes that is an average of 80.5k dps. For a mage to average 81k dps over 4 minutes but not peak until the 3-4 minute mark means we will have to
1. Have a peak around 90k that lasts for 90 seconds but takes while to hit
- we don't have abilities that ramp up like this
2. have continues 81k dps for 4-5 minutes straight that then falls
- more likely but should it fall off? if it lowers much, our long term dps tanks compared to melees

I really don't know rogue dps stats, can the rogue that did 90k, have a sustained 75k dps with no disciplines or endurance left?

Melee really can not run out of endurance unless they die. Respite gives them like 20% of the endurance back they just need to be out of combat (which rogues have numerous ways to drop aggro). And per a rogue in my guild they are at about 50% after a full all out burn. So, it is highly unlikely they have endurance issues (fairly certain this stems from them using discs that are lvl 70 and lower in their burn line-up).

[dorfillya]

........If a rogue bursts for 90k for 90 sec then drops to 75k afterwards, in 4 minutes that is an average of 80.5k dps. For a mage to average 81k dps over 4 minutes but not peak until the 3-4 minute mark means we will have to
1. Have a peak around 90k that lasts for 90 seconds but takes while to hit
- we don't have abilities that ramp up like this
2. have continues 81k dps for 4-5 minutes straight that then falls
- more likely but should it fall off? if it lowers much, our long term dps tanks compared to melees

I really don't know rogue dps stats, can the rogue that did 90k, have a sustained 75k dps with no disciplines or endurance left?

Melee really can not run out of endurance unless they die. Respite gives them like 20% of the endurance back they just need to be out of combat (which rogues have numerous ways to drop aggro). And per a rogue in my guild they are at about 50% after a full all out burn. So, it is highly unlikely they have endurance issues (fairly certain this stems from them using discs that are lvl 70 and lower in their burn line-up).

According to those numbers, if the rogue did 90k dps for 90 seconds, and then dropped to 45k dps, at the end of 4 minutes, he would have averaged about 62k dps over the entire period. That gives me a number to work from, and, I would say, if mages are not able to parse somewhere near that amount over 3-4 minutes, then we got royally screwed this expansion.

Personally, I have parsed no where near that amount.

[Savil]

No way in hell a mage can hold 60k+ for 4 minutes. I don't see that even will full ADPS running.

Savil

[Piemastaj]

Highest I could see for a period over 2min (this is merely basing off of my posted parse w/o any ADPS) is probably 50k or so, if you take into account me lacking some AA and no Cata. I would venture to say that *could* be held for about 3min until Fire Core dropped off, then we will just not have enough power to sustain that. If you use Elemental Union, I would imagine 30 to 35k would be possible for that duration.

In other news: EM14 will be in with the next patch. Guess it can get done after all.....

[Goranothos]

Well, that's it for me guys. Game over.

It was a pleasure to be part of this band of brothers.

Care to elaborate?

Just some things about VoA hit me the wrong way. No need to go into details. I may be back at some point.

No reflection on you as a rep. I think are doing/have done a great job. Good luck.

[Voragath]

Well, that's it for me guys. Game over.

It was a pleasure to be part of this band of brothers.

Care to elaborate?

Just some things about VoA hit me the wrong way. No need to go into details. I may be back at some point.

No reflection on you as a rep. I think are doing/have done a great job. Good luck.

Oh, no, lol I was just wandering what it was you were saying. I wasn't sure if that meant you were quitting or just giving up on ever being fixed on raids. You cleared it up so I'm good =)