NDA Lifted

[Savil]

Interesting, you can take the time to answer the post to basically talk down to me, but you can't answer the very basic and simple questions that were asked and be done with it. I have persisted in asking the same questions from the start of this thread of which you have avoided. My mood has turn more and more upset as you ignore basic questions. Are you not the correct person to be asking *mage* questions of? Should I be talking to somebody else?

I know you are going to hate to hear this vora, and its said to help you see something... Tuli did the same thing and you *blasted* him for it. You are doing the VERY thing you basted other CL / CRT's for. Thats why PJ said you have changed Vora, because you have.

Savil

[svenalo]

I suggest this thread be locked because this bickering doesn't serve any purpose.

[Savil]

NP svenalo, I'm pretty much done. Until vora actually answers questions not much more can be said. Just remember one thing, anytime you close off debate it only puts things off until later, when people are even more upset. Its usually best to try to solve stuff when its happening.

Savil

[Piemastaj]

I suggest this thread be locked because this bickering doesn't serve any purpose.

It actually serves a purpose.

That would be this thread shows us lacking in mana regen and Burst capability, neither of which are new things. It also shows a variety of other semi-important issues aswell pertaining to the devs, and us needing things that we are not being given in a timely fashion.

To be fair though, it is quite hard to have a discussion when questions are not answered.

[Conjem]

Yet your still unwilling to answer basic questions:

* do you feel mages are where they need to be for DPS vs other casters and vs melee?
* do you feel our mana regen is anywhere NEAR good?
* do you feel you provide your raid guild with solid DPS for the good of the raid? IE when your gone does it make any difference to your guild other than "friendship" issues?
* do you feel mages are mostly around to give mod rods to your guild?
* do you feel most mages are happy with the role they have on raids / groups?
* do you feel that 3 freaking years is pretty much long enough for at least SOME headway to be made on these issues?

I'll answer from my experience but I'm not him.

Raidleaders consider mages as filler DPS. If they can't get real DPS they will settle for a mage. The disparity between DPS classes is so huge that it is a stretch to consider mages as DPS.

Our mana regen bad. Our mana consumption is worse.

Fate had 4-8 mages per raid. 6 of those mages were well-geared and essentially capped on AA useful for raiding. That also means those 6 were capped on DPS until the guild progressed. An alt group-geared ranger could smoke us. Rogues and zerkers with 1/4 the AA and lesser gear could beat the mages. Unfortunately, they usually worked most raid days. Filler DPS is not a substitute for real DPS in end game progression.

An alt in the guild hall can fill most rod needs. One mage can cover the other times. Two mages on deadlier raids. Frankly, guilds need DPS more than wands.

Fate died as a raiding guild last Easter. All the mages quit the game. Only 4 raiding guilds remained on Bristlebane and none of them needed rods. They needed DPS- not mages. Two of those guilds did want me to apply but they had more raiders than room.

[Savil]

Ya, thats the kind of response I would expect :/ CFU (now FWO) never did have much use for mages, pouty was damned odd that way. RoV used to have so many members lots benched (not sure how it is now). I used to be on that server years ago in CFU.

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Savil

[Calebe]

This is sad. We have a class rep trying to help us get needed DPS, and some are jumping all over his case as if he is at fault. The EM situation. I was in beta and I read the post about the EM missing. it was not ignored, it was brought to the devs, the thing is nothing changed. So I took it to mean they would either renumber them to 14 and 15 and just remove 16, and add in EM13 to the 1st raid as it is almost non existent in HoT. To me that was of little concern if the upgrades on them was enough, but as I pointed out in Beta the pets weren't tuned till late (as usual) so no time to really test them. To say that the Em pet focus situation went unknown or unasked is false as Vora showed. I saw it and came to the conclusion they would renumber the existing ones and say sorry EM only goes to 15, but are adding EM13 to the drops to make it more available.

Anyway water under the bridge, but I think that would make a nice addition and Vora suggest it to the devs add in EM13 to the drop table for tier 1 loot in VoA, rename 15 and 16 to 14 and 15 and call it a day. smurf few mages have Em13, so make it available in tier 1.

As for the questions? Honestly your asking questions to which you have a preconceived answer. If anyone disagrees you will call them out on it. Nothing like asking a question and knowing the only answers you will accept are the ones built into a very biased wording. They almost answer themselves.

I would say for grouping, with a solid group T4 pet focus from VoA, I would think group mages maybe happy with the pet, and damage they can do. Would they want more? Of course, but are they crying? No. Raid mages are a different story, we need more DPS. Your question answers itself. My issue is some here would say ONLY raid mages need a boost. That is how it always was in the past. Raid centric ego's (and Koz was a big one), always seem to rule on some boards, well mage boards.

So let me put it this way. We want more DPS, look at the rogue model just aa's alone will boost them a lot if the posts here are correct. You realize any and all grouping rogues that never raid will get that same increase? The same should be true for mages. Let the grouping mages benefit from all upgrades aa related as rogues. Let Em focus and rank 3's be the only difference. No other class forgets those that only group. Mages shouldn't either.

Calebe

[Piemastaj]

No1 said anything about grpers not needing anything as it is common knowledge that anything mages get effects both raiders and grpers.

[deadman1204]

I think Calebe has a point. The changes shouldn't be focused on things like clash(raid only spell) and raid level focuses. They only affect raid mages.
The changes we need should be more systemic. They should affect ALL mages. Since raid mages would have better focuses, the changes would proportionally effect them more.

[Savil]

I agree that both groupers and raiders need help and DPS atm.

Calebe: you are correct in that I have my own ideas about the answers to the questions and my point in asking them was very specific. I wanted to know to what extent that vora agrees / disagrees with me. If he disagreed with a point I wanted to find out why and see if their was a middle ground. Questions are never stupid / unneeded in a case like this. For all I know vora could completely disagree with me. If he said so publicly then somebody else could champion the case to the devs directly to give them alternate points of view. Just like we did when tuli was CL.

From what I've seen, I do not feel he shares PJ's and I's viewpoints on the current state the class is in. It bothers me that he *seemed* unwilling to talk about this nor was he willing to put a negative viewpoint about something in front of a dev. I'd also point out that vora was always one of the first ones to want to debate different viewpoints in the past in SW mage and many times I found myself *agreeing* with him or him with me. Now that hes becomes a CRT his entire viewpoint seems to have changed.

I wanted to talk to him the same way we all used to talk about topics in SW mage to figure out a good direction to hit the devs with. For example PJ and I tossed emails to each other for like 2 weeks talking about ideas for FC changes and what to ask for of elidroth.

Speaking of which I was very happy that elidroth was as open to the idea of changing FC as he was. I was pretty happy about the chances of mage DPS being fixed for VoA when I left game. I felt that elidroth was honestly going to try to work with PJ and get some much needed changes for mage DPS pushed into game. This did NOT happen by looking for the new stuff and by talking with PJ and other mages.

I only asked *why* and wanted other peoples viewpoints. At one point I valued Voras viewpoint because it made sense, which is the very reason I asked him for it. I'm not sure WTF to think now, and see mages in worst shape than ever. (see I can disagree with even PJ now and then)

PJ seems what MIGHT can be with enough yelling and what can be built upon during next EXP. *I* see a lot of broken promises and things being ignored for yet another year. At the end of the day it doesn't matter much which of us was right... mage DPS is still ass, and we are laughed at in the raiding game. Just as we have been for *years* now.

Savil