Next Expansion Spells

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Voragath
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Post by Voragath »

Ok, enough feedback for the unity spell until I can discuss it with Aristo. Thanks for the feedback as many great points were made, pro and con, that even I hadn't considered.

Two last things:, a spell that already exists takes nearly zero time. Aristo can whip this spell up in less than 5 minutes. If it were a completely, radically new idea, sure, maybe it did. Also, this won't be taking away from other spells; assuming a spell ever did, I definitely would make sure the devs focus on the dps one's first as it is what the community wants. Worrying about how much time or what a "detraction" this spell could be is going out on a limb for reasons not to do it. Clerics lost nothing for getting their unity spells and they only mentioned it one time in passing and had no idea Aristo would do it.

Now, bring on more new spell ideas!
Last edited by Voragath on Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Piemastaj
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Post by Piemastaj »

Not trying to stir anything up, merely defending myself.

However, for arguments sake if we got a triple spell of Iceflame, Burnout, Velocity and then individual spells I would never use the triple spell. Simple reason really, I can not stand Velocity. Every time this is used my Relocation goes awry (pets get pushed thru walls, pet pushed 25 feet away from mob), or my pet simply over runs the mob and gets me plowed. IMHO it is a terrible spell because EQ can not code pathing right with pets. It is also quite unnecessary with the summon companion AA. It is as simple as that. Not to mention we would be stuck getting our new Burnout at the earliest 1 lvl below max level, if we did not get them on separate lines.

Now as to the shaman/cleric argument. Like I said before it is quite logical for them to get these type of spells. They cast 3+ spells on 53+ people every raid, quite possibly 15+ daily. We would be using this for 1 pet, and the buff would last for over 2 hours. There is no necessity for it like there is with buffing classes. However, if those buffs went on all melee I would be all for it. They do not, and only work on our ONE pet. It is that simple really.

Moving on. I for one am not so delusional to think or even hope spells will be an answer for our DPS woes. It just simply will not happen based on what has been shut down before, based on how our spear lines up with wizard nukes already, and based on the upgrades we have been getting the last few expansions. This is the one spot where we get most of our fluff things, and it is fine really. With our current setup we have ground work for the only things we need to succeed in terms of spells. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely. Will that improvement be made? Probably not, or at least not to the extent that is needed. With that said, ask for fluff stuff that is not a nerf. If we get our 'triple' spell line made and we lose out on the single target buffs then we lose out on burnout at the first level of the new expan. We will be forced to get it the second to last level of the expansion, which will not effect me at all since I max out quite fast but I am sure it will effect a lot more people then you think.

As to 'new' spells. I really do not see a dire need for any new spell unless it is going to be simply amazing. Like a magic spear, or 2 garg pet spells in the same expan. I would rather take time to fix our current spells like Strike (lobby to get it returned back to 9 nukes), Those 2 clicky pets make them either last longer or increased DMG by at least double, get our nukes with some resist adjustments on them (I already have PMs out and waiting to be answered on this issue, with some valid points imho), Get our gather spell more in-line with wizards (currently they get back like 10k more mana then us). There are others that I would need to actually look into and such. The point remains though, there is no real need for new spells or new variations of spells (Triple casting them I mean). Everyone should know it is 10 times harder to get a new spell implemented, tested, debugged, and sent out to live for the final testing of bugs then it is to get a current spell increased X or something of that sort.

Going to finish with this: ask for whatever you want, any type of fluff garbage you think would make your life easier as a mage, propose any type of idea for AAs that you know will not get done or are more fluff stuff, but please do not come here and complain about lack of DPS because you asked for what I mentioned in this paragraph. That is not yelling at anyone, that is not threatening any1, that is not doing anything but simply saying reap what you sew. If you ask for fluff, you will get fluff. If you ask for DPS, generally your going to get DPS (not saying it will be monstrous or spectacular either). It is really as simple as that, and SOE has proved this time and time again.
Last edited by Piemastaj on Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sillaen
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Post by Sillaen »

Firstly: Unity spell may be a nice to have, but it doesn't mean the individual spells wouldn't be used either. We still occasionally get asked for no damage shields whatsoever on raids, which means you can't use iceflame. Anyway, I'm all for it.

Secondly: There isn't any rule that says we can't make 2 lists. 1 with just dps stuff and say, work on this 1st. A second that says only work on this when you are done with the 1st list. Not sure if that will fly, but what's the worst they can do, say no. If all else fails just make sure DPS stuff is at the top of the list. I know the devs would probably just choose the easier crap to work on 1st, but hey, we can't really control what they do. We could maybe only come of with 5 great ideas and make sure 3 of those 5 are all DPS related stuff, so they can't complain they didn't have time.

Now on to an idea.
Primal fusion hasn't really been useful for quite a while now, so how about a spell with a twist that replaces it. Numbers totally made up.

Escalating Assault
1: Add Proc: Escalating Assault Strike rate mod 800 (Escalating Assault Recourse I - chromatic 400DD)
2: Add Defensive Proc: Escalating Assault Parry rate mod 100 (2 sec stun/95)
4: Increase HP when cast by 10000
5: Increase Max Hitpoints by 10000
7: Trigger Effect: Escalating Assault Recourse II on Fade
12: Increase Hitpoints by 240 per tick

Duration: 6 ticks
Cast: Instant

Escalating Assault Recourse I - chromatic 400DD
Escalating Assault Recourse II - chromatic 800DD
Escalating Assault Recourse III - chromatic 1200DD
Escalating Assault Recourse IV - chromatic 1600DD
Escalating Assault Recourse V - chromatic 2000DD

Just throwing it out there. If procs are unacceptable, it could easily be

Escalating Assault Recourse I:
Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 10%
Increase Attack Speed by 10%

Escalating Assault Recourse II:
Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 20%
Increase Attack Speed by 20%

Escalating Assault Recourse III:
Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 30%
Increase Attack Speed by 30%

etc... you get the point. The premise is that the longer it attacks the target the more damage it does. The format for this already exists in game.
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Tweelis
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Post by Tweelis »

If the unity type spell is going to be looked at why not just make them perma buffs that the pet has upon summoning like the armor? or even have a full list of spells the pet comes summoned with and allow mages to buffblock what spells they don't want on their pet? Would it really be that difficult to code something like that? Everytime I die and make a new pet I automatically:
give it weapons
burnout
iceflame
aegis
steelskin
promised heal
surge of shadowflares
embercoat
fortify companion
companions blessing
second spire
fbo
then suspend after leeching a bunch of buffs throughout the day of sitting in the lobby. Rinse and repeat. This is of course dependant on which spells are ready to use (and make sense at the time).
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Piemastaj
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Post by Piemastaj »

Anything with any type of burnout ability on it (like all skills DMG mod will not stack with FBO), or the attack speed portion. As to the DD portion your then taking away iceflame procs AND Virulent Talon procs. That is the sole reason why Primal Fusion sux is because it steals procs from other areas that we need.

Coming up with new ideas that have the same type of increases on them(that we already have in other forms) brings about terrible stackability with current things. So, while it might be new and shiny it could be worse DPS, it could negate more powerful abilties ect.
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Sillaen
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Post by Sillaen »

Piemastaj wrote:So, while it might be new and shiny it could be worse DPS, it could negate more powerful abilties ect.
That's true. I purposely added back the stun ability to it to compensate for iceflame procs and of course the DD portion could be modified up or down. Virulent talon fades after 30 attacks anyway, so this could be used after. I dunno, like I said, just throwing it out there. I don't mind my bad ideas being kicked out. :)
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Piemastaj
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Post by Piemastaj »

Sillaen wrote:
Piemastaj wrote:So, while it might be new and shiny it could be worse DPS, it could negate more powerful abilties ect.
That's true. I purposely added back the stun ability to it to compensate for iceflame procs and of course the DD portion could be modified up or down. Virulent talon fades after 30 attacks anyway, so this could be used after. I dunno, like I said, just throwing it out there. I don't mind my bad ideas being kicked out. :)
It was not my intention (though I assumed it would get taken this way tbh), to dismiss this idea. It was merely a general statement on any newer ideas, that you need to consider what we already have in play for our class before you try and mix/match abilities or anything of that sort.

Which is also why newer ideas kind of suck as well, we have a lot of the 'kewl' abilities already in play in one way or another to a certain extent.
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Calebe
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Post by Calebe »

A couple things to address Pie's comments. Just because it is a combined spell doesn't mean it has to take the spell level of iceflame, it could be the level of burnout so you get it earlier. Also if you do the triple buff in one and don't want velocity then click it off, who said the buff has to have 1 icon? It can be all 3 (just as the shaman and cleric versins are), click off the ones you don't want, and I know you will use it if that was the case, if not then your loss. There is no loss just a gain and make it last 2 hours or 3. Fluff? No, it is convenience, and no one ever said do this before DPS.

On to the resist adjustment to our spells, that has been asked for many times in the past and the usual you have the malo line to debuff mobs, and if a spell is resisted you have a pet doing melee damage without a spell landing etc...... I don't buy that argument, but be prepared for it. We need to argue that even with a debuff we get resisted. As DPS is a concern then this will not up our max DPS (lacking as it is), but it would help.

A magic based spear spell on a different timer then the other spears would help a lot, if on the same timer then it is a wasted spell. Sure we would use it on a fire resistant mob but as we would then have to resort to only magic nukes our DPS wouldn't count and this spell would only be used if a mob is fire resistant. In other words used rarely on a raid and in the group game not used at all as no mage would seek out fire immune mobs. (if we get one would be good with a resist modifier).

We can also ask for an upgraded Thurmagen (or however you spell it) spell. Up the damage it does to a base 9,000 (and all focus's can effect it), and make the mana regen be 100-125-150 per tick or a straight 1000-1250-1500 mana returned instantly. Something useful and the spell can crit to do decent damage, as well as a quick mana return. we have the spell, lets make it usable.

Change the timer on the spell rods to not conflict with the aa rods, as it is now no one will ever use them as the AA rods are better. Make the timer different and people will use them (please up the mana returned on them as well).

Calebe
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Voragath
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Post by Voragath »

The unity spell was just an idea I had and wanted to see what the community thought. It's not been discussed with anyone except you all =)

I like finding a way to get primal fusion back and another way to get it back into beefing the pet. If we can get it to stack with FBO and VT, then it's a good spell to have. Bringing old abilities back in a way that stacks with newer stuff is always good.

Thaumatize is in woeful shape. Too long a cast, regen is pathetic, and the damage is laughable at best (distance based is fail). I can talk to Aristo about beefing this but we abandoned it because he wouldn't budge on making changes that made this spell good. It's original incarnation hurt our dps to use but now it's become a necessity. I'd rather see our other regen brought up.
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Voragath
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Post by Voragath »

Piemastaj wrote:Not trying to stir anything up, merely defending myself.

Going to finish with this: ask for whatever you want, any type of fluff garbage you think would make your life easier as a mage, propose any type of idea for AAs that you know will not get done or are more fluff stuff, but please do not come here and complain about lack of DPS because you asked for what I mentioned in this paragraph. That is not yelling at anyone, that is not threatening any1, that is not doing anything but simply saying reap what you sew. If you ask for fluff, you will get fluff. If you ask for DPS, generally your going to get DPS (not saying it will be monstrous or spectacular either). It is really as simple as that, and SOE has proved this time and time again.
I have found this is not exactly true. If enough people want a certain fluff that is brand new, that could be a problem. As long as our dps upgrades aren't also brand new, we'll be fine. So it works something like this:

New fluff and new dps: probably not much of either or only one or the other.
New fluff and old dps: we'll get dps and a little fluff (but what is made at first for dps might not get much tweaking)
Old fluff and new dps: we'll get fluff and a little dps (but what is made at first for fluff might not get much tweaking)
Old fluff and old dps: we'll get both with plenty of room and time for tweaking.

Err on the side of caution but that will be done when time for a list comes. Now is just time for ideas and fluff can lead to more utilitarian (dps possibly) ideas.

As for new spells, the uber omg fix spell idea is exactly what I hope this thread brings about. We all need to discuss, pick apart, rebuild, and work hard at ideas until we can get it.
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