Next Expansion Spells

[Savil]

At a time where mages are having a hard time getting basic DPS I think having the devs *waste* time on moronic crap like bo / iceflame / symbiosis is just a bit.... well... stupid. Its completely wasteful of dev time and TBH CRT time to ask for such nonsense.

Mages should have one thing and one thing only this next go around : Give us smurf DPS and stop smurf around. All the pointless garbage people have been asking for (and this is a PRIME example) is one of the reasons we keep getting smurf over.

Christ voragath, I know we have disagreed on a few things on the board in the last month but I didn't think you were stupid. Before you became a CRT you and I tended to agree on almost 90% of the things we talked about in SW mage. Now its like the devs have pulled the cork out and your brain drained out.

Of all the smurf broken with the mage class and this is one of the best things you can come up with for next exp?? Seriously??? smurf, the class is doomed.

Savil

[svenalo]

Are you seriously suggesting that nothing should go into the next expansion except DPS related items? I personally never saw the point of the targetted summons for invis stones, but we got them now...and some people are smurf happy we do (personally I still don't give a dam). Did having those created cause any of our problems with mana regen or DPS? No. Did having someone spend a few minutes cut'n'pasting a template to a new variant do it? No. Our problems with DPS and mana regen are far far far more deeply ingrained in things and just is not going to be undone by one spell or even a whole expansion devoted to nothing but DPS spells (and that would never happen anyhow).

Our DPS issues and mana regen issues have to be dealt with as a project as a whole, not just by the spell dev. We need an overall cohesive approach by the DEV TEAM to get it resolved - spells, aa's, code support, etc, etc. It is not going to be solved by some new spell or derailed by some other new spell. To suggest otherwise, well, is just stupid.

Further, leave Vora alone. His job is not to come up with fixes, and he has done nothing to merit your repeated attacks except take a job no one else wanted, thereby receive a NDA so he can't talk about anything much at all, and put a target on his back so that anything he does find a way to say is viewed as "from the castle flunky"... Well I for one have had enough of your crap - shut up and take the job yourself if you think you can do better.

[Calebe]

Savil DPS is a concern, but it isn't the ONLY concern for everyone. You may call asking for an all in one spell fluff, and it is, but it is useful, will be used, and being asked for. Do you honestly think it is a ton of work for a dev to look at the AA rod, see 7500 mana returned, up it to 25,000 mana returned is a huge job? No it isn't. Is it a huge job to change values on a nuke to do more damage? No. They are working on an AA to increase for a mage only how to make the AA rods give more mana back to only mages. Once done is it a huge job to change from say 10% to 40%? No.

You know or should know that an expansion will have more then DPS spells and if we ignore everything and say Pets DPS Pets DPS and only that every time will make any more difference then saying our number one concern is our Pets and DPS, and saying it as well as asking for other things? No and you realize it as well as the rest of us. The devs know it. They have said they acknowledged it. So will the expansion only have that? Of course not, they need ideas for other things and this is one of them.

Along the same line think of it like this. If 1 spell did velocity, pet haste (which is DPS), Ice Flame guard (pet lives, more dps), all in one spell, the upkeep of one spell is faster then updating 2 different spells, giving more time to focus on pure DPS. The initial coding takes time, the upkeep is far easier, saving more time in the end. 1 spell verses 2 needing upgraded (velocity won't need changes but should be innate or part of burnout). Time saved in the long run.

I have already seen posts that we need more DPS but it should be raid centric. smurf we start down that same road that cost the mage class in the past and cause infighting among ourselves.
Do non raiding rogues get different AA's then groupers? Do wizards? Necro's? Berserkers? Rangers? Any class? NO and NO and NO and No...... Get it yet? They get the same spells and AA"s Minus rank 3's. Do they worry if an AA will make the grouper more OP? Not at all, yet mages worry about that? WHY? We just hurt ourselves all the smurf time because of the elitist thought of some raiders that think we are hurting (which we are), but grouping mages are fine. As if a burst AA for a wizard or a burst aa for a rogue will not help the grouping wizard or rogue. Of course it does, and they don't give a smurf and neither should we. If we get a burst AA or spell and a grouping mage gets it. Great they should as every other smurf class gets it for those that group and don't care or should they.

You want distinction rank3 spells and pet focus is it (weapons are it for melee). That is where you make the difference count. The focus effects on gear are higher as is the pet focus. Mages also get a Clash spell which honestly is a raid only spell, sure you may in an all pet group use it, but is that the usual? No, it is a raid only spell in I would guess 98% of all situations. Hell I never load it unless in a raid, and I doubt many use it unless in a raid.

So you want to help DPS we got it, the devs got it. This is a thread for new expansion spells, and like it or not there will be non dps related items wished for. Get use to it. It doesn't mean we only ask for DPS. It is number 1, but they will always give other things and it may as well be items we ask for, then stuff they think up we don't want.

Calebe

[Piemastaj]

Not going to get into your post b/c it will solve nothing. However, atleast 3 other mages apped for the CRT program. That is far from 'no one' wanting the job, and it wasn't specifically for mages either. I have not changed my opinion though, those pet spells r a waste of time.

[Savil]

Yes, IMHO that is the only thing mages should be asking for. If we don't start asking for hard DPS upgrades in both group / raid game were smurf. By asking for all the random junk we will not get the DPS upgrades we badly need to make the class worth continued playing.

For the life of me I don't understand why people are so GD blind and can't see this is the same BS that has happened time and time again to the class in the last several years. We've had several CL / CRT members asking for random junk 01 and when we don't get the primary upgrades we needed were told "sorry, we only had XXX amount of dev time for your class, you got useless ability 01, maybe next year!"

Why can't people understand that if you get the devs ANY FREAKING EXCUSE AT ALL we will not get hard DPS upgrades? What was it about this last 2 exps wasn't clear? Targetted INV STONES? While 1/2 way useful, I would have traded that smurf in a minute for another useful DPS spell. So much dev time is wasted by the current spell / aa dev its beyond stupid.

The devs have pointed out time and time again that adding EVEN ONE SPELL is very time consuming for them and will cost the class something else. Yes, even when it sounds damned simple and easy its still like this. Now you guys want to add something that will be an ongoing effort to maintain?? What spell should we lose dev time on for this *lazy* mage spell?? The ONLY time a spell like this would really be useful is when your pet dies and you badly need to rebuff a new one. Guess what? 90% of the time in this case your already smurf dead. On raids you say? Are people smurf stupid, summon a fire pet already and move on. Why make this so GD hard and stupid??

I understand that it will take a number of DPS ideas to fix the class. I'm all for this area, from spells, from AA, from throwing PJ at the damned mobs for more DPS, w/e, but notice all of those will give mages DPS, not make it easier to be lazy. Hell EQ is already easy enough as it is.

As for nobody wanting the job / its not his job stuff... I totally disagree. Several people asked just like PJ pointed out. The devs picked people they felt wouldn't get up there asses much (boy did they make a big ass mistake in tozonfo). It is TOTALLY his job to do two things, 1, come up with ideas to solve major class issues, and 2, to forward the GOOD ideas the players have about the class to the devs. Whats so hard about understanding this?

Here is a good idea for EVERYBODY, instead of just waiting for 1-2 people to feed you numbers, go out and freaking parse stuff and you'll understand what PJ and I have been saying over and over in the last 2 months, mages are in deep smurf. Find a good rogue in your same gear ... parses against him for 5-6 hours. If your anywhere near his DPS I'll be beyond shocked. It *used* to be that mages were solid in the group game, that is no longer the case. Much like the last exp when PJ and I told you if we didn't get hard DPS jumps we would see mages leaving / being asking to sit out on raids, by next exp you'll start seeing mages turned down for grind groups as well.

People are stupid for ignoring history. If you look back at the things I've said in SW mage and such you will find I've been right FAR MORE than I've been wrong. I understand that what I'm saying isn't pretty, and isn't nice but its sure as hell the truth.

BTW: as a person I have no issues with vora, I remember the sane person from SW mage. As a CRT hes showing great ass kissing skills so far. Hes avoided direct questions left and right and now hes coming up with really stupid ideas for the class instead of pushing for hard DPS upgrades. Tuli pulled the same kind of smurf and we all (including vora) blasted him for it.

I will call anybody out that asked for stupid random smurf over DPS. TBH its what the CRT should be doing for us. He *should* already know all this data from his own personal parsing and from PJ's. Why he is ignoring it is beyond me.

Yes PJ, sorry for the GD book!

Savil

[Calebe]

Here is the problem, everyone thinks their ideas are the best, and anything else is a waste of time. I am sure Unity was a waste of time as after all Shaman could just cast the individual spells, but they got them all in one ( I also know know of no one playing a shaman wanting to going back to buffing the spells individually). Same for a cleric now with their combined spell, it adds nothing just a time saver. The same with this, what it does save is not going for 2 rank 2 or 2 rank 3 spells but now you only need 1 (there is no upgrade for velocity, but it is still a spell you need to load and cast). Not only a time saver but a DKP saver as well if you raid and want the rank 3 versions. Maybe that was something some people over looked? Rank 3 iceflame and rank 3 burnout for one ruin not 2. In some guilds such as mine when we have 70 + people who raid getting spells takes a lot of time and they are bid off so cutting them down helps get the needed ones easier, and burnout and iceflame are needed in my book.

No one is saying drop all work on DPS spells and focus the discussion on a combined spell, but what people are saying is, don't work on another damage shield people won't use, or on another grant ring of levitation no one will ever cast. You want to give us a new spell, make it this one, a combined spell every mage will use every time they make a pet. Even if a fire pet the addition of velocity will make it useful and make it so all the timers are on the same 3 hour (or more) duration so all 3 (bundled as 1) need refreshed at the same time.

I can think of a lot of spells we got I will not use, this one I would. Is it needed? No we can laod and cast 3 spells, but casting one is a far better idea then some of the fluff spells we got in the past.

The entire idea of this thread is to suggest spells we want, and will use, and I know for a fact Pie even though you don't like the idea, you would use it, and would get both iceflame and new burnout faster then keeping them separate. I also know once people have them no one would want to go back to having to cast 3 spells verses one spell.

Needed? No? Wanted. I would say Yes for myself and others would as well. Face it we always get fluff spells, and always get a new burnout and iceflame guard spell. So combine it with velocity and call it a day. 3 in 1 spell is a win, and unlike a lot of spells every mage everywhere will use it all the time when you make a pet or when the buffs fade.

Calebe

[svenalo]

Not going to get into your post b/c it will solve nothing. However, atleast 3 other mages apped for the CRT program. That is far from 'no one' wanting the job, and it wasn't specifically for mages either. I have not changed my opinion though, those pet spells r a waste of time.

Then change "no one" to "few" and it still is a valid statement. And a convenience spell is, in general, a waste of time from the point of view of most folks - but they sure will use it if it's there. Neither fact changes anything, though, in that this thread is supposed to be about spell ideas which should be a grab bag and mish mash of everything and anything we can come up with, and then that list is narrowed down to a top ten or twenty to present to the devs. Suggesting it should only have DPS things in it is beyond ridiculous as is the continual thread hijacking to make the point we need DPS help. We all know we need DPS help, but we need other things, and the odd whacked out or convenience idea won't hurt either.

[Calebe]

Savil you need to chill out a bit. Everyone knows we need DPS upgrades. Anyone that reads these forums knows it. We also know contrary to what your saying that the devs will always give fluff spells whether we want them or not. So ask for one we would want and would use. Is that such a hard concept for you to grasp? I would rather a combined spell I would use then one I won't. Saying only ask for DPS upgrades and when we get useless damage shield 1001, and grant underwater breathing stone, we will wonder why we didn't get something we will use. Grant invis stones are used on every raid and given to non invising class. It just makes sense to ask for things we use, and as they make a new burnout and iceflame every level increase expansion why not make 1 spell to cover 3, and still stress as DPS as main concern one over every thing else.

Calebe

[Savil]

Actually as a long time raider I fully supported the unity line of spells and shamans loved them. I fully get it for shamans and had zero issues with it. It made shamans life much easier because often there were only 1-2 shamans for the entire raid so buffing was a bloody nightmare. Anybody that would say unity was a waste of time is a moron.

The mage spells in question aren't all the same level so what level would this spell be?? 95? If so how does that save DKP? I'm not going to wait for upgrades like that. BTW, not all guilds are DKP based

What your saying makes sense, but I'm telling you what the devs have beat us up with time and time again. If you get them working on XXX they will not work on YYY. So many times in the past I've seen the devs (yes, the current devs) say stuff like "we can't spend all our time on your class, we gave you XXX you'll have to wait until next exp for YYY". Then next year comes around and yet another moron asks for something stupid that the devs latch onto and we get screwed all over again.

Yes, this spell is a better fluff spell than a lot of the ones we were given in the past, but that doesn't mean it should be asked for at all. I'd say ask for junk like this once were not setting out on raids...

Again, Iceflame / burnout aren't the same level, when would we get this super spell? As for use, I hated DoS (deagro) and asked for mages to NOT get it, but once we got it I abused it just like I told them I would up front. Many mage AAs / Spells given in the past have been like that. Mages like Wire and myself have told them up front how we would abuse it and it was pushed into game in the same broken state we warned them about up front.

Mark my words (again) if you ask for junk spells .. you will get them. Because its far easier for everybody to make excuses after the fact. Here is how it will work out:

* devs will add the easier of the ideas to avoid solving the real class issues because they are lazy.
* mages will be told all the dev time went towards junk spell 01 and wait until next year.
* CRT's such as PJ will say "gee I asked for DPS but we didn't get it blah blah blah" and mages are smurf for another year.

Notice how this is the same stupid BS that happened the last 2-3 go arounds? You will if you have a brain. When asking for stupid spells keep this in mind, remember during UF when they had the spell / aa (can't remember atm) that made the pet proc / spawn other pets? They spent HOURS of mage dev time on this and ended up scrapping it completely ... no, we didn't get jack smurf to replace it. Remember how broken that viral DS was?? They spent HOURS on it claiming at the end it was fixed and working... Until wire and I spent HOURS testing it and sent in logs ...

One of the worst things that can happen is for us to forward an odd spell / aa idea up that gets worked on for devs and scrapped. Most people are too damned stupid to understand that every time this happens we get jack smurf to replace it. All this does is give the devs an excuse to be lazy and hurt the class for yet another year.

I'll say it again, next year, our DPS will be so bad the class will be a solo class due to the fact nobody wants us. When it happens you'll see the devs saying "next year!" and you'll see the same SoE cheerleaders saying "doh, I'm disappointed but lets refocus next year!!".

Savil

[svenalo]

But NONE of this has been asked for yet. NONE. This is the "ideas" thread. And like each expansion, all the ideas are gone through, voted on, and a top ten or whatever pulled out to submit. Same with AA's. All you are doing is preventing any mage from suggesting any kind of idea because of this continual rant you are on beating the dead horse into the ground.

Further, relating the pet proc mess to this particular request is ridiculous - this feature already exists for other classes so the support and all is there; that was not the case with the other item. This is not something brand shiny new - it is only a cut'n'paste spell at most, and those don't take hours of dev time to get right (hell, an intern could do this one and in fact this kind of thing is perfect for an intern to work on).