Next Expansion Spells

A home for posts concerning previous expansions.
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Tweelis
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:23 pm

Ya never know PJ, it could be a rather simple thing to code. If Vora asks about it the worst that can come of it is the dev's/coders say it's too much work. However there's a chance they could look into it and say it could be pushed out with minimal effort.
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Piemastaj
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:23 pm

The thing is though, what happens to the mages with the highest pet focus available? I highly doubt SOE will make 1 or 2 pet focus that are not on items, and are better then the best raid item. And if they code it to work on a lower pet focus, they will have to code it to work for the best focus aswell.
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Darkenr
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:45 pm

Piemastaj wrote:The thing is though, what happens to the mages with the highest pet focus available? I highly doubt SOE will make 1 or 2 pet focus that are not on items, and are better then the best raid item. And if they code it to work on a lower pet focus, they will have to code it to work for the best focus aswell.
Well if you think about it though Piemastaj, pet focuse templates do go BEYOND the maximum worn pet focus for a given expansion before it's no longer usable typically by a lower tier spell.

For example, the Spire Servant focus can focus as low as the 66-70 spells, even though the maximum pet focus for the OOW expansion was Servant of Chaos which is a tier lower.

Typically when the devs put together the templates for pets, once they figure out the base of the stats needed, it's pretty linear for the most part on how the stats increased based on the focus levels. Since this would be something we'd be looking at for the future, what they could do is make the pet focuses a couple tiers higher than what's allowed in a given expansion for "worn" pet focuses, and set the stats for the template of the pet focus for those couple tiers higher than the expansion allows which is something they've been known to do anyway in the past with newer pet focuses so that even the maximum worn pet focus isn't the maximum focus allowed for that given pet tier.

Say next expansion they raise the cap to 100, and the new maximum worn pet focus is XIX, but they would already have the templates setup for the 100 RS to be used up to pet focus level XXII, so even though the maximum worn focus is XIX, the RS pet would still be focused to XXII levels because the template still has stats for that high of a focus (which is something they do to prepare for higher focuses in later expansions). Don't believe they already do this? Take a look at the minimum level allowed on EMXVI. It's currently set to a minimum level of 86 for pets it will focus, and I know XVI wasn't available in HoT on an item as a worn focus.
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Piemastaj
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:38 am

Darkenr wrote:
Piemastaj wrote:The thing is though, what happens to the mages with the highest pet focus available? I highly doubt SOE will make 1 or 2 pet focus that are not on items, and are better then the best raid item. And if they code it to work on a lower pet focus, they will have to code it to work for the best focus aswell.
Well if you think about it though Piemastaj, pet focuse templates do go BEYOND the maximum worn pet focus for a given expansion before it's no longer usable typically by a lower tier spell.

For example, the Spire Servant focus can focus as low as the 66-70 spells, even though the maximum pet focus for the OOW expansion was Servant of Chaos which is a tier lower.

Typically when the devs put together the templates for pets, once they figure out the base of the stats needed, it's pretty linear for the most part on how the stats increased based on the focus levels. Since this would be something we'd be looking at for the future, what they could do is make the pet focuses a couple tiers higher than what's allowed in a given expansion for "worn" pet focuses, and set the stats for the template of the pet focus for those couple tiers higher than the expansion allows which is something they've been known to do anyway in the past with newer pet focuses so that even the maximum worn pet focus isn't the maximum focus allowed for that given pet tier.

Say next expansion they raise the cap to 100, and the new maximum worn pet focus is XIX, but they would already have the templates setup for the 100 RS to be used up to pet focus level XXII, so even though the maximum worn focus is XIX, the RS pet would still be focused to XXII levels because the template still has stats for that high of a focus (which is something they do to prepare for higher focuses in later expansions). Don't believe they already do this? Take a look at the minimum level allowed on EMXVI. It's currently set to a minimum level of 86 for pets it will focus, and I know XVI wasn't available in HoT on an item as a worn focus.
That could very well mean they went BACK in and adjusted EM16 to land on those pets. That is a limiting factor, so that no pet under 86 can use it. That does not necessarily mean they had an EM16 template made in HoT, and I am less inclined to think they did. SOE does not like to do extra work until it is absolutely needed, if they have a pet focus going to a certain level, I highly doubt they will make 3 more ranks for no reason. It makes no sense from a logic standpoint, because if they did have ALL the data in for EM16 in HoT then we should have gotten it in HoT.

Now they could have the start of the data in there for up to EM45, but to say it is game ready would be a stretch. And that is the problem, this idea would require them to go above and beyond the max pet foci for the expansion that they had intended. They wouldn't be able to code in so EM14 and lower all work so they cast at 1 to 2 levels higher then the current pet focus. That is actually penalizing the raiders which need the most help, groupers are beyond fine everywhere but Mana regen.

SOE put max level on shawl procs to 255, that does not mean level 255 spells are already made though. It is simply a limit put onto a proc. That is all it means, you can't read anymore into it. Saying they had EM16 gtg for HoT is all speculation, and I doubt it is true.
Last edited by Piemastaj on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Darkenr
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:46 pm

Piemastaj wrote:
Darkenr wrote:
Piemastaj wrote:The thing is though, what happens to the mages with the highest pet focus available? I highly doubt SOE will make 1 or 2 pet focus that are not on items, and are better then the best raid item. And if they code it to work on a lower pet focus, they will have to code it to work for the best focus aswell.
Well if you think about it though Piemastaj, pet focuse templates do go BEYOND the maximum worn pet focus for a given expansion before it's no longer usable typically by a lower tier spell.

For example, the Spire Servant focus can focus as low as the 66-70 spells, even though the maximum pet focus for the OOW expansion was Servant of Chaos which is a tier lower.

Typically when the devs put together the templates for pets, once they figure out the base of the stats needed, it's pretty linear for the most part on how the stats increased based on the focus levels. Since this would be something we'd be looking at for the future, what they could do is make the pet focuses a couple tiers higher than what's allowed in a given expansion for "worn" pet focuses, and set the stats for the template of the pet focus for those couple tiers higher than the expansion allows which is something they've been known to do anyway in the past with newer pet focuses so that even the maximum worn pet focus isn't the maximum focus allowed for that given pet tier.

Say next expansion they raise the cap to 100, and the new maximum worn pet focus is XIX, but they would already have the templates setup for the 100 RS to be used up to pet focus level XXII, so even though the maximum worn focus is XIX, the RS pet would still be focused to XXII levels because the template still has stats for that high of a focus (which is something they do to prepare for higher focuses in later expansions). Don't believe they already do this? Take a look at the minimum level allowed on EMXVI. It's currently set to a minimum level of 86 for pets it will focus, and I know XVI wasn't available in HoT on an item as a worn focus.
That could very well mean they went BACK in and adjusted EM16 to land on those pets. That is a limiting factor, so that no pet under 86 can use it. That does not necessarily mean they had an EM16 template made in HoT, and I am less inclined to think they did. SOE does not like to do extra work until it is absolutely needed, if they have a pet focus going to a certain level, I highly doubt they will make 3 more ranks for no reason. It makes no sense from a logic standpoint, because if they did have ALL the data in for EM16 in HoT then we should have gotten it in HoT.

Now they could have the start of the data in there for up to EM45, but to say it is game ready would be a stretch. And that is the problem, this idea would require them to go above and beyond the max pet foci for the expansion that they had intended. They wouldn't be able to code in so EM14 and lower all work so they cast at 1 to 2 levels higher then the current pet focus. That is actually penalizing the raiders which need the most help, groupers are beyond fine everywhere but Mana regen.

SOE put max level on shawl procs to 255, that does not mean level 255 spells are already made though. It is simply a limit put onto a proc. That is all it means, you can't read anymore into it. Saying they had EM16 gtg for HoT is all speculation, and I doubt it is true.
I agree with you in some regards, there's a few facts that I think aren't being considered here.
First it's not technically "more" work to have more pet focus templates made, it's redirecting some of the work. What I mean by that if they're doing that the way you say, it's still the same amount of work, it just means that they go through and put in the extra work for old pets with new focuses, so in the end it just redirects their work from going back and adding more templates, to not having to go back and do more templates anymore, but it just means that they're making ALL of the templates to the maximum focus that will be allowed even in the future for a said tier of pets.

Also, it doesn't necessarily help the groupers more than the the raiders in this regard, because if you think about it, it's against bosses that raiders mostly user RS for and get the maximum benefit from RS, and in a raid, you almost always have the maximum number of pets on a target which means that as a raider you will "always" have the added benefit.

As a grouper, how often do we really have a maximum number of pets on a target? Generally only against named, because trash doesn't last long enough in a group environment to have all pets on it all the time, which means that we would only get a good "burst" of dps every 10ish mins or so when host and servant come back up.

Yes as a solo/grouper you would get a larger "burst" benefit because of going from a low focus to above the maximum focus, but as a raider, you will be using your RS at the above maximum focus for extended periods of long fights, and multiple fights in a single night.

The benefit to the raider would be increased dps over time over the short burst every 10 minutes that a solo/grouper would get because of the inherent problem of not having the maximum pets on the target very often.
Last edited by Darkenr on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Piemastaj
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:41 pm

Like I said, currently if you would be using an EM16 you would get no benefit. Even in your example you didn't account for max focus.

It is also not redirecting the work, it is doing more work in the NOW and less in the future. If say Aristo normally does 3 pet focus levels per expansion (like VoA), now we are asking him to do atleast 5. All the while he has to do every spell for every class, adjust our pets currently, and then fit in more time to do new pet templates. He has a lot on his plate, and this is a solid amount of code time to put in place. It would have to do a check for pets, a check for focus, then adjust the current focus of the pet for when the pet gets spit out.

To me it seems like a good amount of work for a minor increase, especially on an already overworked Dev.
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Darkenr
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:44 pm

Piemastaj wrote:Like I said, currently if you would be using an EM16 you would get no benefit. Even in your example you didn't account for max focus.

It is also not redirecting the work, it is doing more work in the NOW and less in the future. If say Aristo normally does 3 pet focus levels per expansion (like VoA), now we are asking him to do atleast 5. All the while he has to do every spell for every class, adjust our pets currently, and then fit in more time to do new pet templates. He has a lot on his plate, and this is a solid amount of code time to put in place. It would have to do a check for pets, a check for focus, then adjust the current focus of the pet for when the pet gets spit out.

To me it seems like a good amount of work for a minor increase, especially on an already overworked Dev.
I guess I'm misunderstanding how it would be more work other than if they don't already put in placeholder pet focuses even at a new expansion. You said earlier that they may not put together the templates for say the 91-95 pets for focuses higher than EMXVI (which is the current maximum focus) until the next expansion which means that when the new spells come out, he's STILL going to have to go back and put in template entries for EMXVII, EMXVIII, and possibly EMXIX for the 91-95 pets at the next expansion. It would be taking putting together templates for pets from going back to old spells and pets to put in new templates during a new expansion beta cycle, to putting together ONLY the current tier of pets focuses because they'll have already completed the templates for the future level increase for that current tier of pets.

Once they do this once, then when the "next" expansion cycle comes around, they no longer need to put together new pet focuses for that expansions worn focuses because it will already have been completed from the expansion before.

There's more than 1 way to use this to our advantage as well. Think about it from an AA standpoint. If they do something like this, they could implement an AA to give us a % chance that our RS line would summon at up to 2-3 tiers higher than your current worn focus. That could be another practical use for something like this. The AA would do a quick check at your current worn focus and have a % chance to add +2 or 3 focus tiers to that given RS summon.

There's multiple different uses and advantages to giving the ability to force the RS summon to user higher tier focuses than what's currently the "worn" focus.
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Piemastaj
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:25 pm

Like I said it would be a lot of work at the start, not towards the end.

Pet focus simply doesn't add enough DPS for the code time on this. It adds more to tanking then DMG. I am all for using dev time, but the time vs potential seems low for this. IMHO

We run into that there is only ONE Dev for pets and spells. He is the same Dev. Asking for more then the allotted amount of Pet Focus for our pets will mean our spells and our actual pets can get shafted. So, the least time consuming ideas, the better. This idea would mean more then the set of Pet Focus would have to be in the game and accessible (IE: in working shape), and it would require at the very least 3 checks on 3 different things. It is very involved.
Last edited by Piemastaj on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Darkenr
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:38 pm

Piemastaj wrote: I am all for using dev time, but the time vs potential seems low for this. IMHO
Ok, so your entire focus is on time vs potential, which I can understand, but lets please not forget about the solo/groupers either. It is to some degree a minor dps upgrade, but it also is a serious benefit for the solo/grouping game, and that should still be considered as a priority, because not everyone is raiders. If I saw this come in as the solo/grouper tool, and then we had other cool changes that helped the dps, and more of the raid game as well, I'd be a pretty happy camper. But I do agree that if this seems like too much work, then it should be shelved, or put on the list of "would like, but not the top pressing issue at this time".
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Piemastaj
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Re: Next Expansion Spells

Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:17 pm

Darkenr wrote:
Piemastaj wrote: I am all for using dev time, but the time vs potential seems low for this. IMHO
Ok, so your entire focus is on time vs potential, which I can understand, but lets please not forget about the solo/groupers either. It is to some degree a minor dps upgrade, but it also is a serious benefit for the solo/grouping game, and that should still be considered as a priority, because not everyone is raiders. If I saw this come in as the solo/grouper tool, and then we had other cool changes that helped the dps, and more of the raid game as well, I'd be a pretty happy camper. But I do agree that if this seems like too much work, then it should be shelved, or put on the list of "would like, but not the top pressing issue at this time".
Bolded is the issue. If you demand a radical change, kind of what your asking to do, it requires a lot of code work. It also would shelf other attempts for us. If you have 1 big idea, and say that idea tanks or is just not as brilliant as you thought, we just wasted X amount of time on our class. That is not something anyone wants to do, waste time.

As to the grouper/solo issue, you can not even bring that up. We are so good in that situation it is crazy. The only thing we actually need there is better Mana Regen. Our nukes are perfectly fine, our pets tank fine, VT actually increased sustained DPS there, our garg pets can off-tank. Our only limiting factor is Mana regen/consumption.

If a grouper/soloer is worried at all, or under performing you need to join the serverwide channel. That is our bright spot atm.
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