Vapor core + First spire + Glyph of Courage?

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Voragath
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Re: Vapor core + First spire + Glyph of Courage?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:14 pm

Piemastaj wrote:Vora is saying that Fire Core will take precedent over Elemental Union because it has a higher focus.

I am saying that sleeves and Fire Core, Elemental Union, bard song ect are 2 different focus lines. Sleeves are 1 roll on a nuke then your Fire Core-Elemental Union-Bard will be the second roll. They work together to get the final outcome of your nuke.
I'm thinking he's discussing stacking issues. IIRC, it's a combo of what PJ and I say. FC will get the roll over EU, then the worn focus gets a roll with the highest of the 2 rolls being used.

This sounds complicated so I'm going to try and clean it up. You are allowed to have a worn and spell focus. FC and EU are spells. So, the game will check either FC or EU and then the worn focus. After those 2 rolls, you get the highest roll.

So, say you hit FC and EU and cast spear. EQ rolls on FC because it's a better focus. Then it rolls on your sleeves because you are allowed another focus roll. FC rolls a 50% increase but your sleeves roll 100%, so you get the 100%.

They don't stack because they are % gains and EQ always uses the highest with those types of bonuses. EQ can only stack +bonus types.

My apologies if this is incorrect. The above is how I understood it when it was explained to me.
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Piemastaj
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Re: Vapor core + First spire + Glyph of Courage?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:01 am

From practical use that does not sound right to me. It seems to work how I explained it really.

You can see this by upgrading your sleeves and FC does not get upgraded. You will see a higher DPS increase and better burn numbers. If the way you explained it worked, upgrading your sleeves would not matter 3/4s of the time if you had Fire Core on. Because you start out at a 75% to 125% roll for Fire Core whereas Sleeves are at a 45-100% roll. So 1/4 of the time you will have a chance to roll higher then FC if it falls into the 75-100 range. And 3/4s of the time you will beat out sleeves by min rolling both (75 vs 45) and 100-125 by rolling higher then Sleeves. Making sleeves very useless 75% of the time.

I actually just tested this. With 7th on and Fire Core and NO sleeves I was at 155 to 165k in 30+ casts. When I added sleeves I was b/t 170k and 190k(had an outlier of 167k which could be both min rolls) in 30+ casts. Which is why I am fairly certain worn modifiers and Spell Modifiers are additive. The highest effect takes place when comparing 2 spell effects, which are different then worn modifiers.
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Voragath
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Re: Vapor core + First spire + Glyph of Courage?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:26 pm

Piemastaj wrote:From practical use that does not sound right to me. It seems to work how I explained it really.

You can see this by upgrading your sleeves and FC does not get upgraded. You will see a higher DPS increase and better burn numbers. If the way you explained it worked, upgrading your sleeves would not matter 3/4s of the time if you had Fire Core on. Because you start out at a 75% to 125% roll for Fire Core whereas Sleeves are at a 45-100% roll. So 1/4 of the time you will have a chance to roll higher then FC if it falls into the 75-100 range. And 3/4s of the time you will beat out sleeves by min rolling both (75 vs 45) and 100-125 by rolling higher then Sleeves. Making sleeves very useless 75% of the time.

I actually just tested this. With 7th on and Fire Core and NO sleeves I was at 155 to 165k in 30+ casts. When I added sleeves I was b/t 170k and 190k(had an outlier of 167k which could be both min rolls) in 30+ casts. Which is why I am fairly certain worn modifiers and Spell Modifiers are additive. The highest effect takes place when comparing 2 spell effects, which are different then worn modifiers.
Then I misunderstood how it was explained to me.
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Thanasis
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Re: Vapor core + First spire + Glyph of Courage?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:49 pm

I tested this a while back also and got same results as Pie. Stuff can be confusing when not trying it out in parses.
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Cielli
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Re: Vapor core + First spire + Glyph of Courage?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:58 pm

So the way I'm reading this is... If I'm running fire core, I get a roll ( random between 50-150% ) ... Hypothetically It rolls 85 .... But then my Sleeves random roll is 45-100 ... and it rolls a 100 . So the sleeves roll is chosen and that is the focus which is applied?

They basically roll against each other and the higher result is what you get?

I previously thought... bc Fire Core is higher ( 50-150 ) ... It basically overwrites sleeves and you only get the 1 roll from Fire Core, & sleeves become null. but you guys are saying they compete?

Thats what Vora is saying anyway...

& PJ is saying... you get 2 rolls, and the sum of those 2 rolls is the applied focus?

I'll have to do some parsing, ty for all the info.
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Cielli
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Re: Vapor core + First spire + Glyph of Courage?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:27 pm

here is a parse, on the same combat dummy, with sleeves ( t1 rof raid ), and with no sleeves.

This was a weave of 96 bolt, 100 fickle, 91 bolt, 95 fickle.. I realize the fickle procs may have affected things, so i'm about to run these with just bolts and spears.

will leave it to you guys to tell me what these numbers mean

edit: Im sry the captions are backwards, the one that says with sleeves is the one without, the one that says without is with.... :lol:
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Piemastaj
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Re: Vapor core + First spire + Glyph of Courage?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:04 pm

Really trying to not be rude here, but you wasted your time running those parses unless I read what you parsed incorrectly, then my fault. Because we know sleeves increase DPS, which is what your parse shows. The thing in question was comparing Sleeves and Fire Core to see how their stacking went.

However, you need to re-take a look at my previous post and it is very simple. The way things play out in use is that Sleeves add onto Fire Core. Vora was saying he got explained that either your sleeves roll won or your Fire Core roll won. Whichever rolled higher took precedent over the other.

Like I said in my above post with 7th (to merely get crit chance maxed), Fire Core, and NO sleeves I was around 155-165k DMG on my single spear spell. I only cast around 30 times to make sure I would get semi-reliable numbers. Then I would equip my sleeves and I was seeing higher then 190k and as low as like 165k or so. So if I was not hitting 190k with just Fire Core (in 30ish casts I hit it 3 or 4 times so RNG probably wouldn't be that terrible in the first set of numbers to off-set my data where I possibly missed a 190k w/o sleeves on) and now with sleeves and Fire Core on you can make an educated guess that they are adding to each others rolls to get your end result.

Vora is correct with SPELL focuses. Elemental Union and Fire Core will not add onto each other, Fire Core will win out every time.
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Cielli
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Re: Vapor core + First spire + Glyph of Courage?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:24 pm

Here's with a Spear/spear/bolt/bolt weave, more than 1000 casts
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Cielli
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Re: Vapor core + First spire + Glyph of Courage?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:39 pm

It's not useless...

A cumulative effect where both focus's are additive would have resulted in 1.37 times base damage. These parses show nearly half that. The only way it could be cumulative is if the added damage is not subject to crit.

that said, I can't do the math on what a dice-roll competitve between-focus effect would be as vora suggested. perhaps someone else can do the math
Last edited by Cielli on Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Piemastaj
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Re: Vapor core + First spire + Glyph of Courage?

Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:55 pm

In this context, it is. Unless your using Fire Core which looking at your parses it would appear you were (Your second set of parses). Need to specify exactly what your using or it invalidates data your trying to create. The length is a bit extreme to prove the point also. The max hits a lone allow you to see that sleeves will add onto Fire Core.

But your very long parses, show arms are adding something to Fire Core which is all that was necessary. The thing in question was if arms are pointless or not when having Fire Core running.
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