new stuff
Re: new stuff
If there isn't another level cap increase raid mages will have to retire, plain and simple. I HIGHLY doubt we will get the necessary upgrades required to make us good at the high-end in a non-level increase expansion. I know for one I will probably be done with EQ, or make a berz.
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."—Douglas Adams
Re: new stuff
I got word back from Eli: "I can't talk about anything without an official announcement. That doesn't mean I can't talk about things hypothetically, but I haven't had time to read over the list either. I'll try to find some time this weekend to give it a look." I asked him if we would hear anything about the list since Fan Faire was announced so the new expansion shuld be inc.
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."—Douglas Adams
Re: new stuff
I agree, if UF taught us anything, it's that melees just blast ahead casters in non-level increase expansions. Even without that, I doubt they'll not do a level increase as we are running out of aa's. The only exception is if they figure out some unique way for us to advance our characters that isn't tied to aa's or gear. Without a level increase, we won't get the fixes we need and melee will shoot even further ahead, and will turn us officially into the new beastlords pre-HoT.
With a level increase we can get spells with better damage and casting/recast ratios and new spell lines. Our spells will essentially help us either keep pace or pull ahead of melee garbage.
With a level increase we can get spells with better damage and casting/recast ratios and new spell lines. Our spells will essentially help us either keep pace or pull ahead of melee garbage.
Re: new stuff
If they made it so spell damage impacted nukes more overall (not just improving long recast nukes by a ton), I think we would be in a lot better shape in the non-level increase expansions. They really need to find a stat on gear they can give us or make a stat do more to our nukes to help bridge gaps in non-lvl increased expans.
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."—Douglas Adams
Re: new stuff
Personally I think they can fix our issues without a level increase, however they would have to actually do some work to do so. With a level increase so much is masked by the levels and new spell upgrades and whatnot that it is hard to tell how much really was fixed until it's really to late to do anything about it until the patches to the patch of the patch start coming down.
With no level increase you have a relatively static playing field as a start point and they (in theory) should be able to better tune classes with respect to each other because nothing in that "base" is changing. Past history unfortunately shows they don't do that well, but it also shows they don't ever do it well when level increases occur either.
So I am on the fence. If they add levels, fine - its a week or three of grinding and those are done, and then some more grinding and the AA's are done. If no new levels, its just grinding of the new AA's. Either way you grind away to get either or both squared away asap (with regard to your circumstances) so you can be as effective as possible.
With no level increase you have a relatively static playing field as a start point and they (in theory) should be able to better tune classes with respect to each other because nothing in that "base" is changing. Past history unfortunately shows they don't do that well, but it also shows they don't ever do it well when level increases occur either.
So I am on the fence. If they add levels, fine - its a week or three of grinding and those are done, and then some more grinding and the AA's are done. If no new levels, its just grinding of the new AA's. Either way you grind away to get either or both squared away asap (with regard to your circumstances) so you can be as effective as possible.
Re: new stuff
I can see where your coming from, and if we were talking about anyother company a non-lvl increase expansion would be our best bet. Problem is they have run out of kewl ideas to increase most classes power. So, really the only way to increase our power is by increasing our levels and then making our new spells have more dmg and lower recast times seeing as it was a huge no go in beta for HoT spells.
EDIT: Absor said this in a post on EQlive: 2. We're listening for any ideas for new expendible AAs... The main issue with a game that's been around and actively developed for this long is that the well does indeed run dry. There is X amount of design space. We've explored all the easy space and, in some cases, clear-cut the forest there. Nobody could have expected that 11+ years later we might actually run out of easily accessible and worthwhile ideas. We're always open to fresh avenues. It's my dream that someone posts something interesting and when we explore it we find ourselves in an new design space that we can explore and manage properly. I have no doubt that we'd be a lot better at managing it now than we were ten years ago (or even five years ago).
We do have some good AA ideas they could throw in on a non-level increase expansion, but no work done on our spells would only get us a minor to ok boost instead of the major boost we need in burst.
EDIT: Absor said this in a post on EQlive: 2. We're listening for any ideas for new expendible AAs... The main issue with a game that's been around and actively developed for this long is that the well does indeed run dry. There is X amount of design space. We've explored all the easy space and, in some cases, clear-cut the forest there. Nobody could have expected that 11+ years later we might actually run out of easily accessible and worthwhile ideas. We're always open to fresh avenues. It's my dream that someone posts something interesting and when we explore it we find ourselves in an new design space that we can explore and manage properly. I have no doubt that we'd be a lot better at managing it now than we were ten years ago (or even five years ago).
We do have some good AA ideas they could throw in on a non-level increase expansion, but no work done on our spells would only get us a minor to ok boost instead of the major boost we need in burst.
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."—Douglas Adams
Re: new stuff
No new spells for us would have to equate to no new weapons for melee and they always get weapons and they always get some sort of melee synergy boost. If they could make our weapons matter somehow and/or make caster synergy insanely OP like melee synergy, then I'd agree about the non-level increase "clean slate."
Re: new stuff
If they did a UF style expansion, and let the melees have their toys, but gave us some kind of "symbiotic" spell similar is some ways to fickle that was a buff that boosted our power relative to say the force size (as opposed to how fickle does it), that might work. If you are grouped, it would boost it Z...if you were in a raid, it could be a significantly bigger boost Y augmented by how many were in the raid so actually might be xY...could even be an AA.
Re: new stuff
The devs have long since proven they have no friggin clue how melee synergy works, so they almost always underestimate how much a melee toon can get out of their weapon. So even if they did plan around giving us a boost to match them, we'd inevitably be below anyway.
Point is, ask for upgrades for us. Don't ask to be equal to any other classes.
Point is, ask for upgrades for us. Don't ask to be equal to any other classes.
Re: new stuff
Much that I hate to say it, I see this next exp as the death of the mage class as we know it. Many reasons go into this, and I'd like to take a few moments to outline a few:
* We as mages can't seem to fully agree on any one line of action. We have mages that are only pushing for changes that directly effect their own personal play style. More than one mage falls pray to this atm.
* SoE is unable to come up with ideas that help the mage while in raids but not completely fubar the group / solo game. I've seen a lot of ideas tossed around in SW mage so far that try to address this issue, but most of them introduce even more issues into the game.
* Due to the fact that SoE has zero idea how to balance casters vs melee, and the fact we have aspects of both I think that no matter what happens were pretty much screwed. Next exp will see melee doing 75-85k dps, mages will be lucky as hell to break 50k, and even then only a handful of mages will do that.
* With none of the current devs even playing EQ anymore, much less spending time as a mage, I don't see how they could possibly fix the issues raid mages are having.
* The only community leader that reps mages seems to have his own agenda. We have no idea what is being said behind closed doors on SoE's boards, we only have his word for it. Quite honestly, I don't trust tuli to provide the feedback that raid mages need to fix our class. Sorry tuli, I don't mean to be a jerk here, but your past deeds of last beta are haunting you.
* We have so many mages asking for new pet "superpowers" that will do NOTHING for raiding mages in the end, but will completely unbalance us in the group game. This push for pet superhero status has to stop. Yes, I understand pets are core to our class. I also understand that many mages feel any new increase to power should come from pets or summoning, GET OVER IT. If you haven't figured out that SoE can't find out a good / balanced way to pull this off by now your clueless.
* Some mages yelling they want more summoned items. Unless one of those summoned items provides a uber nuke this will NOT be of any use to a raiding mage. Yes I understand there is more to the game than raiding, but mages are FINE IN THE GROUP GAME. Anybody that tries to tell me mages need help in solo .. well, hang up your robe and start another class please.
* Due to the stupid comments of a few members of the mage community pet foci became unreal rare drops, this is really hurting the class a great deal more than most understand. This needs to be fixed. Them saying they will bump it a whole 10% when were seeing raiding guilds clear SS 10 times and not getting a single drop is far less than what is needed.
There are many other facts that play into this, but those are some of the biggest. Unless we all get on the same page and push for the same things they will give us more of the same and we will fall even more behind.
Many top end guilds only have 1-2 full time raiding mages in them. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why? Its simple, it only takes 1 mage to toss rods to the raid. Some of you are old enough in the class to remember how FUN it was to cast rods nonstop for hours back in the day. Well, were headed right back to that, and the jokes on us, as it only takes 1 boxed mage to do it now. Anybody that tells me some nonsense about DS's at the raid level needs to be shot. Same goes for CoH as well.
Mage raid DPS has become a complete joke now. The only time mages top parses now (for any type of fight really) is when they are guilded with a bunch of freaking slackers. I know mages that blow glyphs / 7th just to do 60% of the dps of melee.
I've talked with many mages from other guilds, and I've been shown a LOT of guild parses from top end guilds. Lets break down a few numbers for a 2 min fight:
Rangers doing 50-60k dps not uncommon, I know of one ranger that breaks 60k dps a LOT.
Zerkers doing 50-60k dps not uncommon
Rogues doing 50-55k dps VERY COMMON.
Wizards doing 50k burns for 90 secs not common, very rarely doing less than 45k dps for 2 min burns.
Necs doing 45-50k dps, wow, this coming from a "sustained" class.
BSTS doing 50k dps, really, a freaking class that is supposed to be just as tied to the pet as a mage...
Monks doing 45-50k dps, and hell look at all the other stuff they take to the raid .. and good dps too
MAGES: I have never seen a mage do more than 40k dps. *ever*. Not in full HoT and full Rk3's. Not one single time. Whats worse, only 2-3 mages have even broke 30-32k dps. One freaking mage has done 39k dps, and my personal best is 37k dps. Most mages are doing less than 50% of other raiders. Think about that .. that is complete crap.
It doesn't take much to spot the issue with this. Now before the same old set of people tell me to send in parses blah blah blah, they have been sent... over and over. FFS we do less dps than a freaking beastlord now! And their doing insane ADPS to their group as well!!
I don't care how well we do in group / solo, we suck badly at the raid level. This is shown very clearly by upper end guilds and the amount of mages they have raiding. Until we focus on raid level issues and stop asking for *stupid* things that take the devs time away from working on the issues that are really hurting mages at the raid level and stop asking for stupid new summoning spells, or crazy "super pets", or demanding that any power increase be done is some "magely way" were doomed.
I hear so much from group / solo people (you know who you are) that "I pay to play this game just like you do so I'll ask for what I want"... well that goes both ways. Raid mages are sick of the crap were getting, I'm sick of seeing mages get passed over for freaking beastlords on raids, and I'm sick of seeing the same old crap being asked for all the time.
Mark my words, this exp will make or break raid mages, if they push out the same stupid BS (like spending all mage dev time for moronic summoned crap over giving us something that actually gave us power) your going to see a lot of raid mages leaving the game. I would hope that group / solo mages are smart enough to see how this will hurt them as well, and that they will not be like "what do I care, I don't raid..."
Please don't let this happen, I'd rather not main change, and I'd rather not quit. Think about what your asking for, consider how it will effect the rest of your class. Most of all, stop being selfish and asking for stuff that only works for your own personal play style. If you don't, your going to see a lot less of your mage friends still playing.
Savil
* We as mages can't seem to fully agree on any one line of action. We have mages that are only pushing for changes that directly effect their own personal play style. More than one mage falls pray to this atm.
* SoE is unable to come up with ideas that help the mage while in raids but not completely fubar the group / solo game. I've seen a lot of ideas tossed around in SW mage so far that try to address this issue, but most of them introduce even more issues into the game.
* Due to the fact that SoE has zero idea how to balance casters vs melee, and the fact we have aspects of both I think that no matter what happens were pretty much screwed. Next exp will see melee doing 75-85k dps, mages will be lucky as hell to break 50k, and even then only a handful of mages will do that.
* With none of the current devs even playing EQ anymore, much less spending time as a mage, I don't see how they could possibly fix the issues raid mages are having.
* The only community leader that reps mages seems to have his own agenda. We have no idea what is being said behind closed doors on SoE's boards, we only have his word for it. Quite honestly, I don't trust tuli to provide the feedback that raid mages need to fix our class. Sorry tuli, I don't mean to be a jerk here, but your past deeds of last beta are haunting you.
* We have so many mages asking for new pet "superpowers" that will do NOTHING for raiding mages in the end, but will completely unbalance us in the group game. This push for pet superhero status has to stop. Yes, I understand pets are core to our class. I also understand that many mages feel any new increase to power should come from pets or summoning, GET OVER IT. If you haven't figured out that SoE can't find out a good / balanced way to pull this off by now your clueless.
* Some mages yelling they want more summoned items. Unless one of those summoned items provides a uber nuke this will NOT be of any use to a raiding mage. Yes I understand there is more to the game than raiding, but mages are FINE IN THE GROUP GAME. Anybody that tries to tell me mages need help in solo .. well, hang up your robe and start another class please.
* Due to the stupid comments of a few members of the mage community pet foci became unreal rare drops, this is really hurting the class a great deal more than most understand. This needs to be fixed. Them saying they will bump it a whole 10% when were seeing raiding guilds clear SS 10 times and not getting a single drop is far less than what is needed.
There are many other facts that play into this, but those are some of the biggest. Unless we all get on the same page and push for the same things they will give us more of the same and we will fall even more behind.
Many top end guilds only have 1-2 full time raiding mages in them. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why? Its simple, it only takes 1 mage to toss rods to the raid. Some of you are old enough in the class to remember how FUN it was to cast rods nonstop for hours back in the day. Well, were headed right back to that, and the jokes on us, as it only takes 1 boxed mage to do it now. Anybody that tells me some nonsense about DS's at the raid level needs to be shot. Same goes for CoH as well.
Mage raid DPS has become a complete joke now. The only time mages top parses now (for any type of fight really) is when they are guilded with a bunch of freaking slackers. I know mages that blow glyphs / 7th just to do 60% of the dps of melee.
I've talked with many mages from other guilds, and I've been shown a LOT of guild parses from top end guilds. Lets break down a few numbers for a 2 min fight:
Rangers doing 50-60k dps not uncommon, I know of one ranger that breaks 60k dps a LOT.
Zerkers doing 50-60k dps not uncommon
Rogues doing 50-55k dps VERY COMMON.
Wizards doing 50k burns for 90 secs not common, very rarely doing less than 45k dps for 2 min burns.
Necs doing 45-50k dps, wow, this coming from a "sustained" class.
BSTS doing 50k dps, really, a freaking class that is supposed to be just as tied to the pet as a mage...
Monks doing 45-50k dps, and hell look at all the other stuff they take to the raid .. and good dps too
MAGES: I have never seen a mage do more than 40k dps. *ever*. Not in full HoT and full Rk3's. Not one single time. Whats worse, only 2-3 mages have even broke 30-32k dps. One freaking mage has done 39k dps, and my personal best is 37k dps. Most mages are doing less than 50% of other raiders. Think about that .. that is complete crap.
It doesn't take much to spot the issue with this. Now before the same old set of people tell me to send in parses blah blah blah, they have been sent... over and over. FFS we do less dps than a freaking beastlord now! And their doing insane ADPS to their group as well!!
I don't care how well we do in group / solo, we suck badly at the raid level. This is shown very clearly by upper end guilds and the amount of mages they have raiding. Until we focus on raid level issues and stop asking for *stupid* things that take the devs time away from working on the issues that are really hurting mages at the raid level and stop asking for stupid new summoning spells, or crazy "super pets", or demanding that any power increase be done is some "magely way" were doomed.
I hear so much from group / solo people (you know who you are) that "I pay to play this game just like you do so I'll ask for what I want"... well that goes both ways. Raid mages are sick of the crap were getting, I'm sick of seeing mages get passed over for freaking beastlords on raids, and I'm sick of seeing the same old crap being asked for all the time.
Mark my words, this exp will make or break raid mages, if they push out the same stupid BS (like spending all mage dev time for moronic summoned crap over giving us something that actually gave us power) your going to see a lot of raid mages leaving the game. I would hope that group / solo mages are smart enough to see how this will hurt them as well, and that they will not be like "what do I care, I don't raid..."
Please don't let this happen, I'd rather not main change, and I'd rather not quit. Think about what your asking for, consider how it will effect the rest of your class. Most of all, stop being selfish and asking for stuff that only works for your own personal play style. If you don't, your going to see a lot less of your mage friends still playing.
Savil
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