new stuff

[svenalo]

I am glad he came here and is having a discussion, which shows he really is interested in helping us. If you are angry or upset, either wait until you are calm to post or pm Eli. If your intent is to beat up Eli, fine, do it and win while the whole mage community loses. I'd rather see Eli stick around, even if it is on his own time, and really work with us to get us back on track because it is more than any other developer has ever done for us.

Exactly.

Maybe what we need is a very heavily moderated thread or forum where nothing gets posted until someone "flame checks" it...I generally hate those things, but sometimes they are needed. It is quite similar, in some ways, to the reason the NFL and the players are in court and court ordered mediation right now...and in our case the forum/thread moderator would have the role the mediator in those has, forcing people to stay on point and cutting off the flames/rhetoric.

[Piemastaj]

The problem is that is a 2-sided way of working. Like I mentioned, Eli hasn't said much other then we need upgrades. Which is a well known fact by just about everyone in EQ. We can tone it down all we want, but the point remains none of our ideas are getting addressed in this thread, which is the whole point of the thread.

I am in no way trying to beat anyone down, but if someone posted that thing about rangers on EQlive that thread would have gotten taken down with in 15minutes and everyone who reads EQlive knows it and that is just a regular person, if it was a dev prob 5minutes.

There is no communication going on from the stand-point of what ideas of ours are getting through. Do they need parses to back up our ideas, do they need more ideas, do they hate our ideas and we suck? Nothing like that has been really addressed by Elidroth, which has us at a stand-still at the moment until we get some feedback on our ideas.

This also leads to quote mining and such, because even though those threads were different on EQlive they were generally on the same idea of us needing more Burst DPS. Until we get some groundwork set about what they are looking at for us we are trying to play baseball w/o the ball.

Also, the mage community can lose by us sitting around doing nothing aswell. And we have in the past.

EDIT: Actually Vora that raid DPS thread is the one he stated we need more burst DPS in the form of spells. The mage class one is where it was changed to it should come from pets and spells.

Sven, if that was the case (heavy moderation) I would have had to edit Elidroth aswell. If your saying what some of us are doing need to be moderated, calling names and such is also a needs for moderation.

[Sillaen]

Some of you guys are getting this all wrong. Everyone here is happy that Eli is taking the time to come chat with us on these boards, that's not even a question. While I can agree that the tone on both sides can be toned down a bit, it's nothing personal. Eli doesn't want to break us and we don't want to be left behind/fall further behind. We all agree we need some major help in DPS and yes I'm going to use some quotes to see if I can get the point across.

Perhaps we have a different opinion on what burst dps should be used for. In fact, I'm sure of it. To me, burst dps should be for emergency situations that normal dps can't handle. So yeah.. situational dps is more what I was thinking for burst dps. In looking at it again, I will agree with you though that 2 hours is too long. What I don't want is something that is used multiple times in a single fight.

Here we are both saying a 2 hour reuse is too long. We are saying, why even deviate from the standard? A situational (burst) DPS increase on approx. the same reuse timers as the other DPS classes (30'ish mins or so) is fantastic. We're not trying to be the best, just competitive. Why were we even talking about 2 hour reuse? An ability that makes us competitive once or twice a night doesn't help at all.

One thing every class needs to understand. Pointing out how another class is 'broken' isn't justification for giving you broken abilities as well. That Rangers can't burst to 65k for a short fight doesn't mean YOU need to be brought up to that level. More likely it means something is out of whack with Rangers and they need to be reined in a bit.

No one is asking to be brought up to a rangers' level. We are also not asking for any broken abilities. We are not even saying rangers are broken at all. All of us understand that a rangers' max burst is dependent on ADPS. If rangers are topping the burst DPS charts in the right conditions and every other DPS class is around the ~10'ish% behind area, then mages at full capacity is ~50'ish% behind, then I would contend that as a DPS class that we are the ones that are broken. Even if the devs decide to pull rangers back a bit to match the other DPS classes (and I'm not saying they should), we'd still be ~40'ish % behind everyone else.

Now what to gather from all of that.

1. The definition of burst is irrelevant. If a fight is designated a burn, then all the DPS classes should be able to burn competitively with each other at similar intervals. (read as: same general reuse timers on abilities)

2. The amount of DPS put out in a burn should be competitive among DPS classes. (read as in the same ballpark, not different islands)

This brings us back to, how do we get it done? There have been tons of good ideas thrown around.

PS: Again, we do appreciate that you take the time to stop by and chat Elidroth. Don't think for a moment your presence is not welcomed.

[Elidroth]

OK.. Here's my short, explicitly detailed opinion on DPS increases.

You need more DPS. The overall increase should come from a combination of spell and pet dps changes.

You need more burst DPS. That should come from spells IMO.

Pet power is tricky to balance between raid and group situations, so we're more likely to want to give less to the pet side, and more to the spell side.

I haven't read all your ideas yet on how to get there.

[Savil]

OK.. Here's my short, explicitly detailed opinion on DPS increases.

You need more DPS. The overall increase should come from a combination of spell and pet dps changes.

You need more burst DPS. That should come from spells IMO.

Pet power is tricky to balance between raid and group situations, so we're more likely to want to give less to the pet side, and more to the spell side.

I haven't read all your ideas yet on how to get there.

This one quick answer could have saved us all so much time and typing. Thank you for directly answering this question.

The pet power issue is the exact reason myself and a few others were so against trying to tie it into them.

Please get back with us when you've had a chance to read over our ideas and let us know what you think, both positive and negative. We are more than willing to work with you.

For me, this is prob my last post.

Savil

[Piemastaj]

Could have saved probably 5 pages worth of stuff lol.

Also on the pet power thing: our heals are crappy atm (not asking for upgrades in particular), but putting all our eggs in a basket that most healing classes dont care about isn't smart imho. Especially with how AE-intensive some fights are and some event mechanics target pets to make the raid fail aswell.

[Calebe]

Thanks for the post Elidroth. If you read the threads on our suggestions can you post here and let us know which ones you like, dislike and how we can help refine them to we get something that is workable and agreeable to all concerned. Feedback and open communication can only help speed the process and with your input on what is workable or totally off the table can help focus all in the right direction to solve this issue.

I think we should focus on burst dps first non pet related as that may be the easier of the 2 to address for the raid situation, and then see how we stack up and make up the difference with a pet, and possible aa's to allow the pet to be highly resistant to AOE's ro some sort of a divine aura but only for spells (aoe's) that lasts 2 minutes for a burn situation with upgraded pet dps, as one off the cuff suggestion.

Calebe

[Elidroth]

Changes made this morning. These should appear on test soon (hopefully). More to come.

Fire Core:
Starting with rank 2, I'm increasing both the minimum damage bonus, and the maximum damage bonus.
Rank 5 now looks like this:
Min Bonus raised to 30% (from 1%), Max Bonus raised to 90% (from 70%).

This results in an increase from 35% to 60% (a 25% increase) damage bonus for Fire Core as sample size approaches infinity. As always, these values are subject to change depending upon testing results.

[Piemastaj]

thumbs up! I noticed you posted on the warr thread that their shield specialist changes would take effect in the May patch, provided FC works properly and such culd we see it go live then? Or will it need more testing?

[Elidroth]

IF nothing is broken or overpowered, the FC changes would go out in May.