Funny in my post I did not mention a single spell idea or AA. I only said that things that were a NO in the past have become a YES in the present. I did not say what spells, or AA, I did not say if any required a code change in fact I said I have NO IDEA what they maybe except and this is where you need to pay attention.
Things that were a NO in the past can become a YES in the future. I stand by that point. I did not say reverse call of hero, I did not say pet swap, I did not say well a smurf thing except DO NOT LIMIT because of a NO in the past. Many things we could use are in the code base but not for a mage currently, that may become mage usable as they run out of ideas.
Disagree with that PJ or Savil? No I didn't think you would because as I pointed out it has happened and will again. Stop reading into a post things not said at all to make you feel supeior and all knowing. Your like the rest of us you want the mage class to not only be viable but thrive and be a fun class to play. That was all I was implying, make suggestions and do not rule out anything.
Want an example that is code based? Snare. Do we have it? No. can we get it with a 15 minute reuse timer. Yes. Root yes on a ring that was removed but still available (I have one). Could it come back as a new item? Possible if asked for. As I said heals, drape, pet divine aura all unheard of for a mage, and using some logic. So the spells are in game but mage were told no and no and NO, so stop asking for them. People asked, stopped asking asked again and they came to be. Hell the best mage heal spell was an ancient spell at the time. So rare as hell but obtainable. Yes I have that one also.
My point you all missed is simple, because they said NO in the past does not mean it will not become a yes in the future and I will state again I have NO IDEA what they may be, but things change and may happen as they run out of idea's.
Calebe
New Spells for Next Expansion:
Re: New Spells for Next Expansion:
Last edited by Calebe on Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: New Spells for Next Expansion:
Actually to be completely fair Calebe, my comments in the last week or so were *not* directed at you. I stand behind my statements about not asking for things that have been shot down over and over by the devs due to Code issues. Asking for things like pet DA, DoS and such are a completely different matter. The devs said no in the past to pet DA / mage fade because of balance issues (ie the dev in question didn't like the ability for the class), not because it would be almost impossible to code given the current code base.
For the record I felt that pet DA was iffy (far to easy to abuse) and DoS was pointlessly stupid (again, imho). PJ and I actually had different opinions on this topic btw as he had no real issues with the AA.
Typically when the devs tell a class no because of code issues it almost always stands. I totally agree with you on things which are voted down because the devs felt it was a bad choice / unbalanced. They might indeed change their minds on those.
When the devs take the time to explain to a class why they can't create an AA because of code, and why, it would have to get old (they have said as much to us) when they have to do the same song and dance every single year, year after year. A *great* example of this is having RS pet work with TC, the devs have said time and time again why they can't do it, what it would take, yet every single year its asked for over and over.
The only thing PJ and I are trying to get people to understand is the simple fact that if we ask for 352352 different ideas the devs will pick which they want to add. The ones the will pick are the ones that are simple to add, we've seen this play out time and time again (and not just for mages). If we want the class to progress into something better we are going to have to present a united front to the devs, and give them a *short* list of ideas. IE something around 10-15 different ideas about things the class *badly* needs to remain wanted for both groups / raids.
Stupid smurf like cross zone CoH, reverse CoH, pet swap, and the like will *not* do this. If anything its going to make the devs tune the class out because its the same old BS to them. I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand. For the last 5 years the class has gotten screwed because people keep doing the same stupid smurf, over and over.
For the record, I have no issues with ideas staying on a general list as long as the list is prioritized in such a way that it makes it clear which are *badly* needed and which we would consider "extras". Just keep in mind, the more ideas you give the devs that are considered fluff the less chance the class has of getting the core changes it badly needs. Its simple, if you give the devs and "out" by letting them give the class 4-5 things that won't fix the massive issues the class has atm, they will do so. Its basic human nature, and its the same track they (devs) have followed for the last several years.
I've said it once, I'll say it again, don't ignore history people, or the class will get screwed again.
Savil
For the record I felt that pet DA was iffy (far to easy to abuse) and DoS was pointlessly stupid (again, imho). PJ and I actually had different opinions on this topic btw as he had no real issues with the AA.
Typically when the devs tell a class no because of code issues it almost always stands. I totally agree with you on things which are voted down because the devs felt it was a bad choice / unbalanced. They might indeed change their minds on those.
When the devs take the time to explain to a class why they can't create an AA because of code, and why, it would have to get old (they have said as much to us) when they have to do the same song and dance every single year, year after year. A *great* example of this is having RS pet work with TC, the devs have said time and time again why they can't do it, what it would take, yet every single year its asked for over and over.
The only thing PJ and I are trying to get people to understand is the simple fact that if we ask for 352352 different ideas the devs will pick which they want to add. The ones the will pick are the ones that are simple to add, we've seen this play out time and time again (and not just for mages). If we want the class to progress into something better we are going to have to present a united front to the devs, and give them a *short* list of ideas. IE something around 10-15 different ideas about things the class *badly* needs to remain wanted for both groups / raids.
Stupid smurf like cross zone CoH, reverse CoH, pet swap, and the like will *not* do this. If anything its going to make the devs tune the class out because its the same old BS to them. I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to understand. For the last 5 years the class has gotten screwed because people keep doing the same stupid smurf, over and over.
For the record, I have no issues with ideas staying on a general list as long as the list is prioritized in such a way that it makes it clear which are *badly* needed and which we would consider "extras". Just keep in mind, the more ideas you give the devs that are considered fluff the less chance the class has of getting the core changes it badly needs. Its simple, if you give the devs and "out" by letting them give the class 4-5 things that won't fix the massive issues the class has atm, they will do so. Its basic human nature, and its the same track they (devs) have followed for the last several years.
I've said it once, I'll say it again, don't ignore history people, or the class will get screwed again.
Savil
Re: New Spells for Next Expansion:
I actually read your post, and understood it quite clearly.
You chose to not agree with what I said, and that my statement was very true. You did bring up spells (ice nuke is a spell, it simply summons a clicky), you also brought up AAs (IVU is in AA form). Those are VERY easy to implement, especially if they are already in the code work. Like my post said, there is a distinct difference b/t Spells and AA vs CODE.
This gets brought about because of pet swap and reverse coh or group coh. Simply because you did not bring it up, does not mean those 3 things are not on people's minds about why we do not have them. They are also ALWAYS brought up, yearly at the very least.
You simply keep bringing up easy things to implement. Like I said, most of those things you bring up are DEVELOPER decisions, not CODE decisions. CODE does not change as often as developers change. CODE is not as easy to deal with either.
I do disagree with you here. When we actually get a code change on something at the very sametime we ask for it, we can talk. Not 2 years later, not 10 years later. Until they start making CODE changes on a whim, I will agree we should never leave anything out. That is far from the case now. Spell and AA changes get made daily on Beta, monthly on live. I agree we shouldn't doubt any SPELL or AA changes, that will not require code, which I do not think anyone has. But wasting your time on the same 5 abilities we want is just that, a waste. Come up with new things, come up with realistic things.
Simply because SOME things have changed does not mean we should have false hope. We still do not have a root, a SELF heal spell, a snare. We can get clickies for it, but that is not something WE have. Or do Rangers have DA also because they can farm the clicky? Your sinking with that type of logic. Pet DA is also on the verge of being nerfed, because of the raid utility it brings.
We do not need false hope. We need real things for our class.
FYI I do not feel superior or all knowing, thank you for making that assumption though. I have and am still dealing with developers though. I also have a fairly solid understanding of what is a real possibility and what is a major stretch. Simply because your unaware of things does not mean the entire class is in the same boat as you. I ask for things that we can get, that will also help our class out. Asking for the same abilties over and over again is a good way to get the developers to ignore you, broken records are terrible to listen to.
Again, the point was not missed. I was elaborating on the situation.
You chose to not agree with what I said, and that my statement was very true. You did bring up spells (ice nuke is a spell, it simply summons a clicky), you also brought up AAs (IVU is in AA form). Those are VERY easy to implement, especially if they are already in the code work. Like my post said, there is a distinct difference b/t Spells and AA vs CODE.
This gets brought about because of pet swap and reverse coh or group coh. Simply because you did not bring it up, does not mean those 3 things are not on people's minds about why we do not have them. They are also ALWAYS brought up, yearly at the very least.
You simply keep bringing up easy things to implement. Like I said, most of those things you bring up are DEVELOPER decisions, not CODE decisions. CODE does not change as often as developers change. CODE is not as easy to deal with either.
I do disagree with you here. When we actually get a code change on something at the very sametime we ask for it, we can talk. Not 2 years later, not 10 years later. Until they start making CODE changes on a whim, I will agree we should never leave anything out. That is far from the case now. Spell and AA changes get made daily on Beta, monthly on live. I agree we shouldn't doubt any SPELL or AA changes, that will not require code, which I do not think anyone has. But wasting your time on the same 5 abilities we want is just that, a waste. Come up with new things, come up with realistic things.
Simply because SOME things have changed does not mean we should have false hope. We still do not have a root, a SELF heal spell, a snare. We can get clickies for it, but that is not something WE have. Or do Rangers have DA also because they can farm the clicky? Your sinking with that type of logic. Pet DA is also on the verge of being nerfed, because of the raid utility it brings.
We do not need false hope. We need real things for our class.
FYI I do not feel superior or all knowing, thank you for making that assumption though. I have and am still dealing with developers though. I also have a fairly solid understanding of what is a real possibility and what is a major stretch. Simply because your unaware of things does not mean the entire class is in the same boat as you. I ask for things that we can get, that will also help our class out. Asking for the same abilties over and over again is a good way to get the developers to ignore you, broken records are terrible to listen to.
Again, the point was not missed. I was elaborating on the situation.
Last edited by Piemastaj on Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."—Douglas Adams
Re: New Spells for Next Expansion:
On a side note, I'm sure the devs know that DCA is not the culprit here. It's the BDA that can be cast by other players on pet. I'm not sure if they can make that distinction, but they should. There is nothing wrong with our DCA.Piemastaj wrote:Pet DA is also on the verge of being nerfed, because of the raid utility it brings.
Re: New Spells for Next Expansion:
If by nerf you mean removing the ability for pets to maintain aggro through DA, then yes; otherwise, then no. I've talked about DCA and pet tanking a lot with the devs. Sillaen is right, our DCA isn't the culprit at all. It helps but there are tons of other abilities tied together that allows for these things. The devs know that. But then again, by being crafty and sly with other class abilities, nearly every other class can be a raid tank too so I'm not sure why people get mad about DCA except that they are jealous pets can maintain aggro through it (and that's an issue with how pets are treated by eq code).Sillaen wrote:On a side note, I'm sure the devs know that DCA is not the culprit here. It's the BDA that can be cast by other players on pet. I'm not sure if they can make that distinction, but they should. There is nothing wrong with our DCA.Piemastaj wrote:Pet DA is also on the verge of being nerfed, because of the raid utility it brings.
Re: New Spells for Next Expansion:
I meant all types of DA. DCA is a problem, but 18 seconds is nothing to take a second look at. I am unsure if it will be their ability to hold aggro (seeing as this would probably need code work to rectify), or if they will have pets blocked on DAs. I think blocking pets would probably be the easier solution.
If they blocked DA then we can just get our DCA turned into like Weaponshield, frontal immunity to incoming DMG, would be a fair compromise I think.
If they can just block or remove pets from DA working on them, then our DCA should be fine, I am unsure if it will work so easily though.
If they blocked DA then we can just get our DCA turned into like Weaponshield, frontal immunity to incoming DMG, would be a fair compromise I think.
If they can just block or remove pets from DA working on them, then our DCA should be fine, I am unsure if it will work so easily though.
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."—Douglas Adams
Re: New Spells for Next Expansion:
this is the first time back to the boards since my last post in this thread. busy irl with family stuff, computer issues, ad nauseum. when i don't have the time to devote to eq that i'd like, the forums are the first to go. i'm not tryin to stir the pot on dead issues, i just don't visit these boards very regularly.
i do know what a handful of mages have contributed to the class, from personal experience. my first venture into raiding, i spent hours reading up on parses, the latest tricks, how to maximize dps on raids. i didn't have a vet mage in that guild to show me the tricks of the trade, and mages on these boards were invaluable. i don't want to come off as some petulant brat the bites the hand that feeds her. *however* i stand by the idea that we need to check ourselves to ensure that new players are welcomed on this board. there's a huge difference between saying that idea has been discussed and will never happen, and you're so dumb i can't even believe you're a mage. it may seem like semantics, or that i'm asking people to play nice like we're in friggin kindergarten. we've lost way too many of the best mages to ever play the game. we need some new voices, some people to contribute to fill the void left. unfortunately, we will prolly continue to lose vet mages, and the rest of us that remain will have to carry the torch. the worst thing we can do is silence newcomers.
i do know what a handful of mages have contributed to the class, from personal experience. my first venture into raiding, i spent hours reading up on parses, the latest tricks, how to maximize dps on raids. i didn't have a vet mage in that guild to show me the tricks of the trade, and mages on these boards were invaluable. i don't want to come off as some petulant brat the bites the hand that feeds her. *however* i stand by the idea that we need to check ourselves to ensure that new players are welcomed on this board. there's a huge difference between saying that idea has been discussed and will never happen, and you're so dumb i can't even believe you're a mage. it may seem like semantics, or that i'm asking people to play nice like we're in friggin kindergarten. we've lost way too many of the best mages to ever play the game. we need some new voices, some people to contribute to fill the void left. unfortunately, we will prolly continue to lose vet mages, and the rest of us that remain will have to carry the torch. the worst thing we can do is silence newcomers.
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