Sympathetic Items/augs

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jack96jill
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Re: Sympathetic Items/augs

Post by jack96jill »

wouldnt the item agreeable alleviation from the items actually be detrimental to your mana returned, if aa can proc before sa, then it takes up your chance for an sa proc, since you can only have one proc per swing/nuke...unless aa is checked after the sa procs.
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Crysalis
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Re: Sympathetic Items/augs

Post by Crysalis »

jack96jill wrote:wouldnt the item agreeable alleviation from the items actually be detrimental to your mana returned, if aa can proc before sa, then it takes up your chance for an sa proc, since you can only have one proc per swing/nuke...unless aa is checked after the sa procs.
Yer that's what i was worried about but finally got round to getting myself an sa aug to check.
400 hits, 72 you feel better (18%), 93 you feel refreshed (23.2%)
So looks like the aug is being checked first need get one for my offhand now to check that. Also fits quite well with the commonly believed 25% proc chance.

Not sure why the weapons have much lower procs tho, even the raid one is only aa1
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wire
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Re: Sympathetic Items/augs

Post by wire »

Crysalis wrote:
jack96jill wrote:wouldnt the item agreeable alleviation from the items actually be detrimental to your mana returned, if aa can proc before sa, then it takes up your chance for an sa proc, since you can only have one proc per swing/nuke...unless aa is checked after the sa procs.
Yer that's what i was worried about but finally got round to getting myself an sa aug to check.
400 hits, 72 you feel better (18%), 93 you feel refreshed (23.2%)
So looks like the aug is being checked first need get one for my offhand now to check that. Also fits quite well with the commonly believed 25% proc chance.

Not sure why the weapons have much lower procs tho, even the raid one is only aa1
First of all, there is no 25% proc chance. Sympathetic effects proc using a set rate over time, not per cast and should be measured in Procs Per Minute (PPM) instead of Procs Per Cast (PPC). This result should be invariable given spells with different cast times. However, there are several other variables such as Dexterity, Heroic Dexterity and Combat Effects which may or may not affect sympathetic proc rates.

There is a common misconception with regards to procs in the prescence of other procs. Adding an additional proc should not negatively impact an existing proc. The chance for each proc to fire should remain unchanged, provided you are swinging (in this case casting) enough to satisfy each effect's proc rate. So, if one proc fires at 2.7 PPM and another fires at 4.2 PPM, both together should have an overall proc rate of 6.9 PPM, provided you are casting at least 6.9 times per minute.

Our new 1-2-3-4 casting weave lets us churn out a spell on average every 3 seconds. That's 20 spells per minute. Even if every sympathetic proc on items and augs was 5PPM each (they are less), we would have enough casting to support them all together.

It is true that in a limited sample you may find yourself only procing one effect over another, but over time, you should not notice any reduction in proc rate for either effect.
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Crysalis
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Re: Sympathetic Items/augs

Post by Crysalis »

Cheers Wire, seems a lack of info about these really atm and other thread I read about them made the same mistake I did of only using 1 type of nuke.

Noticing a greatly increased proc chance using longer cast nukes now. Looks like 3ppm atm, but will update later.
Really should copy over to test to do this.

Using 2 0.75cast 3.75 recast spells
1000 hits - 209 you feel better - 234 you feel refreshed - which works out at just under 3ppm for each

Using 2 2.2(hasted)cast 5.25 recast spells
346 hits - 127 you feel better - 123 you feel refreshed - which also works out just under 3ppm for each

If it doesn't take recast into account tho im confused.

Using 1.5 for gem refresh instead of recast they both match up, but thats giving a procrate just under 6ppm
Could prolly use more nukes for both aswell but not sure what's deemed enough
Last edited by Crysalis on Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jack96jill
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Re: Sympathetic Items/augs

Post by jack96jill »

edit: scratch that, im tired lol :P
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wire
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Re: Sympathetic Items/augs

Post by wire »

Crysalis wrote:Using 2 0.75cast 3.75 recast spells
1000 hits - 209 you feel better - 234 you feel refreshed - which works out at just under 3ppm for each

Using 2 2.2(hasted)cast 5.25 recast spells
346 hits - 127 you feel better - 123 you feel refreshed - which also works out just under 3ppm for each

If it doesn't take recast into account tho im confused.

Using 1.5 for gem refresh instead of recast they both match up, but thats giving a procrate just under 6ppm
Could prolly use more nukes for both aswell but not sure what's deemed enough
Again, hits don't matter. It's the time of the sample that you should be using to derive PPM. You get X "you feel" messages over Y seconds * 60 = PPM. Cast time and recast time have nothing to do with it, except that you can show this to be the case by letting them vary, as you have done.
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Voragath
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Re: Sympathetic Items/augs

Post by Voragath »

I just ran two 10 one-minute runs of the Urgak's soothing stone. Not the hundreds of minutes or 1000's of casts that most expect but good enough to get an idea of what's going on.

My first run was just chaining fickle and bolt (rk. 3) without spell haste other than gear. Each minute yielded: 7, 7, 6, 4, 6, 8, 7, 6, 6, 5 procs. That's 6.2 ppm.

My second run was jolt, fickle, bolt with rk. 2 spell haste from a tier 5 85 merc (almost like raid setting). Each minute yielded: 5, 7, 7, 5, 8, 5, 3, 7, 4, 7 procs. That's 5.8 ppm.

So, it looks to be 6ppm. That's obviously modded from the 2ppm (about) that was given to us as the base rate in beta. So what's modding these? My current Hsta is 131. It's definitely not CE because that's at 15 and that wouldn't make for a 3x increase in procs. I suppose it could be tied to Hint (211). Any ideas?
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Redius
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Re: Sympathetic Items/augs

Post by Redius »

HDex mods melee proc rates (i think...or maybe that's just for crits, i dunno, i'm a smurf fingerwiggler). Perhaps that is messing with it somehow.

That's all I can figure....or simply that the dev's bumped up the PPM numbers and didn't bother telling anyone.
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Voragath
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Re: Sympathetic Items/augs

Post by Voragath »

I'm wondering if the ppm was changed too but was wondering if maybe something else mods them. Above, someone parsed at 3ppm which isn't too big of a change. Even at 6ppm, that's about 1300 more mana per minute which works out to one more bolt every minute which is really not much at all. That's during a straight burn like Scryer's and Brekt but if you are running all over like Beast, Mindblight, Mindshear, Fippy, then you really aren't earning much except for the few 1-2 min burn intervals you get because of the lack of casting.

If anyone can, who has this aug, and is willing, I'd like to see some parses from you. If you run it, you'll have to make sure you have just the one aug for a fair comparison.
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Voragath
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Re: Sympathetic Items/augs

Post by Voragath »

Ok, nevermind. Their is a post on eqplayers that says they made the procrate to match a warrior with 100 CE and full proc aa's. So it seems like 6 ppm, or whatever it truly is, is the number everyone will get.
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