master Spell idea list for new expansion

[svenalo]

Any comments on the rankings in the updated first post? Or do I have them right?

[Merlaina]

Mod rod for endurance - since there's not many ways to increase endurance in a fight this would make us more desirable in raids again, and still useful for grouping.

How about just adding endurance to the existing mod rod? I don't like the idea of yet another set of summons to have to mem.

Even better. Good thinking.

[Voragath]

I know we are past brainstorming but an idea occurred to me while on the mage forums on eqplayers. What if we subbed the resist fire part of our main ds for something that works like the iceflame proc? Or, maybe some sort of dmg mitigator. Can make it a no pet spell so it doesn't land on pets and give them infinite life then make another ds that is pet only, the thaumacretion line. I know many don't want to be tied to a buff that's necessary but it will revive the ds line and stop all this bullsmurf about overpowered pets as giving the iceflame line to the tanks will put them closer to pet survivability like they want.

This will also benefit us as it will allow us to buy some time when smurf hits the fan and we are trying to escape.

Thoughts?

[Merlaina]

I had previously suggested just removing the pet only flag from iceflame and make it so we could use it on players as well as our pet. Would help mages with group and raid utility quite a bit.

[Voragath]

Yeah, same idea. Yeah, I'd like iceflame to stay on pet so it can keep it's power and duration. Iceflame is just a mere 30 dmg whereas brimstoneskin is 123. Also having it separate allows them to change procrate or effect without screwing over our pets. Maybe we should put this on the list then?

[Glaven]

I had previously suggested just removing the pet only flag from iceflame and make it so we could use it on players as well as our pet. Would help mages with group and raid utility quite a bit.

I like this idea. Would be a significant utility for us. I think we all agree that utility is not our focus, but it would be kind of cool to get something new besides rods and DS.

[svenalo]

So what we you are proposing, to be clear, is...

1. The next upgrade to our DS line would be cast ONLY on players; have no resist component but instead has a rune component similar to Iceflame.
2. The Iceflame line itself would remain pet only, and be upgraded as normal.
3. The Thaumacreation line would be changed to become the DS buff we would cast on our pet because as of right now it's PC only.

Correct?

My problem with #3 is over the long haul that our 123 point DS is on, the pet is getting hit a lot for a very low mana cost over all. With Thaumacreation becoming the DS for pets, we would have to be casting it continually for significantly more mana cost, and it would be off more than it's on because of the 8 hits counter it has and the 30 second recast. So its off in a flash, and we go 20some seconds of no DS... 1450 x 8 is 11600 dmg....123 * all the hits in 30 seconds will exceed that damage if more than 94 hits occur which is pretty much a given in UF (and therefore future expansions). Monks do 16 hits in a second at max...30 seconds of that is a max of 480 hits...even if half miss thats 240 hits or 29520 damage. Mobs hit pretty dang fast too, so I think the comparison is reasonable, but if someone wants to dig through parses to get actual hits that would rock. Regardless, if we were to do this, that line would need some serious work so we wouldn't lose out overall.

Wouldn't a simpler, better change be a totally new spell we can buff tanks with that gives them a chance to proc a rune like Icefame does on the pet? We could call it something like Protection of the Elementals. Then the existing spell lines could be extended as they normally would be.

[Voragath]

Right on 1 and 2. And I was thinking of reworking the Thauma spell altogether or just create a new spell that's a ds for pet. Or better, just change the iceflame ds portion to a higher number to reflect the loss of the normal ds. Mainly, because of the same analysis as you made for thaumacretion.

So work it this way:

1. The next upgrade to our DS line would be cast ONLY on players; have no resist component but instead has a rune component similar to Iceflame.
2. The Iceflame line itself would remain pet only, and have it's DS component increased to reflect the loss of the normal DS.

*Bolded part is the changed wording.

I think that's clean and easier. That let's the other lines get bumped up / tweaked as normal.

[Merlaina]

So basically you're wanting the same spell twice, just with different DS damage, rune absorption, and proc rate values?

I think in the spirit of asking for more more more as we've been talking about, that just asking for iceflame to be player targetable would still be a better solution. It seems to me the reason you're wanting them split into two different spells is because you think iceflame as it stands would be overpowered on players, but if we're pushing for big upgrades why not just ask for the full on iceflame on players? Wrap it and our DS together and give it a larger DS (300ish or more), the on hit proc (400-500), and rune recourse (2 hits), and make it both player and pet targetable. I'd be fine if it had the duration of our normal DS. Give us a group version as well like our normal DS has, and maybe we'd finally have a reason to buy the MGB AA before you hit 4K AAs. This way we become more desirable in groups and raids since the duration is too short to just have someone hit you with it in the guild lobby and expect much from it, but it would be a huge boost to tanks.

[Voragath]

Unlocking the pet only tag on iceflame isn't a bad idea and, yes, I am asking for the same spell twice. My biggest concern is it's ability to be modified or scaled. Asking iceflame to be unlocked makes it at the mercy of player power and tuning aspects. I want pet spells tuned for pets and pc spells tuned for pc's, not pet spells tuned for pc's. Power could effect it's scaling and we want it to scale well to always be useful so splitting them allows them to gain in ability independently. If it's too powerful for pc's, but too weak for pets, we get screwed at the next increase; if it's too weak for pc's but too powerful for pets, then the pc's get screwed. The scaling and balancing just gets screwed having one spell.

The other reason for making the change as I suggested is to help alleviate this illusion that pets tank better than pc's. They will now have all of our pet's abilities to tank plus their own; so if pets still survive better, it's easy to pinpoint the problem.

I'm not opposed to just unlocking iceflame and using it in place of ___skin but I don't like the idea of a spell designed around our pet being at the mercy of pc's. This will no doubt become a spell tanks want (and they'll groan at one more "must have" spell) so their voice will influence this spell later on either negatively or positively. If it's ok for pets now, but too weak for pc's, making it stronger will continue the argument that pets are too powerful. Right now, iceflame is the difference between pc's and pets.

Now, if we want to go ahead and unlock iceflame, your suggestion is right: Go for the biggest bang possible.