The Magician's Tower

Savil wrote: HAHAHAHAHA, only 4x huh!? The very last thing I want is for my freaking pet to die on a raid, WHY would I use an ability that would KILL MY PET. You would drive buffers NUTS asking for rebuffs and end up never getting pet buffs over this.

This is just how burnout USED TO BE, and NOBODY USED IT. It was stupid then and its stupid now. Every year somebody asks for this type of CRAP. Stop asking for stuff that will kill off pets. Learn how to play a raid mage before making suggestions please.

Savil

I was only throwing out suggestions. Like I said in a previous post if you bothered to read it, I know the devs don't want any pet DPS increases atm, but I throw all ideas (pet and everything) out there and let them sort it out. And before you jump in with it's people like you who send pet stuff to devs causing all these problems, no, I do NOT PM devs. I do not post of the EQ live boards requesting anything. I post ideas here among fellow mages to agree or disagree with. I do mean disagree, not condescend, like you seem to be doing.

Just because you never used the original burnout, doesn't mean no one else did. You are scolding people for tossing out a play style by pushing your own play style.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about burst DPS. Has the definition of burst changed recently? Why wouldn't you use something like that if the fight is lasting under 120 secs? The 4-5 secs it cost you to pull out a suspended pet after the fight is over cuts sooooo deeply into your DPS. It's an option, and I like options. Are your buffing classes such dicks that they won't buff your pet for 3X fights a night. I'm sure glad my buffers don't mind at all.

And for the record, I have been playing a raid mage for over 11 years. Have you? Get off your smurf high horse with your smurfing attitude. I know the struggles mages have gone through since the dawn of EQ.

Elidroth wrote:Well.. this has been an interesting thread to read. Here's some reality for you. Nearly everyone on the dev team plays EQ in some capacity. Literally every class expects us to play THEIR class at a raiding level. This just isn't possible.

In short.. I have no less than 15 PMs from mages over the past few weeks. Some wants more pet-based DPS, while others want spell-based DPS. There is no other class as split on how they want to do something than Mages. The only thing you do agree upon really is that you want more DPS, which is basically the same sentiment from literally EVERY DPS CLASS.

Savil, I have NEVER lied to the players. I won't deny that sometimes things hav, but I have NEVER, EVER, told players something knowing full well that I wasn't going to do it, or that it couldn't actually be done.

One last thing, and I can't be more clear on this subject. Just because you ask for something, doesn't mean it will get done. no matter how many times you ask for it. Many of the suggestions I received last beta were simply not reasonable, or not possible for the class.

I don't expect you to play a raiding mage, never said I did. I do expect you to play the game, and I do expect you to raid now and then. You can't really do a good job if you don't. The pallie issue more than proved that.

As for the PM's, this is just the thing I was trying to AVOID. I didn't want 15 different people asking you for 15 different things cause thats a great way to get none, or have a dev go out on his own. We've had that happen before and it didn't work out so well.

You have told people you would do X, and never did X. You can tell us you wanted to and it just "slipped through the cracks", but you never explained yourself. And having something slip for 6-12 months is a bit much. When you tell a customer you will do something you do it. Or you get back to them as to why you can't do it. Its a simple matter of good CS. IMHO when you started dodging the issue .. must like you are currently doing to the same questions on EQ live.. you start pushing into dishonest.

You told us you would do RS pets and TC. Then we find out something else, then you say you can't, then tuli tells us yet another reason was given for why. Which is true elidroth? Sure sounds like a lie near the end. Let me be clear, I think you wanted to do it in the beginning, but near the end I think you started being less than honest about it when people started to really press you.

I asked you on EQ live, I'll ask you here as well, by all means please explain the RS / TC issue, explain how the mod rod issue you said you would fix before live took you 5-6 months to fix? And even then you only fixed it because I was throwing it into your face so much in your defensive thread. There are more, but I'd like to hear about just those 2 issues. If there is a valid reason why, I'll be the very first one to tell you I'm sorry and get off your case about it. I've asked you this before and you ignored it, do you think that makes it look any better?

Your last statements I have no issue with. I understand you get flooded with ideas, and a lot of them are prob pretty stupid and or outright undoable. One of the things we were trying to do here was come up with a list of good suggestions to submit so we had a better chance of actually getting something done.

I'm just as frustrated as you here elidroth, and I'm actually more than willing to work with you to solve the issues facing our class. I agree I've said some harsh things on EQ live and here about you, some I fully support due to your actions, some might have been on the mean side *grin*. But if your willing to work with us or some of the other mages (I'll totally understand not wanting to work with somebody that called you a moron) you will find were willing to work with you.

Savil

Hi Eli...welcome to the forums. The thread may be a bit choppy in the first half where we got on a tangent of whether pets are or not DoTs, the way unintended ideas get attached to things if you choose certain wording (connotations - omg I used the word - duck and cover), and so on. Seems to be back on track in part now except for the sideline about what is and is not a lie...

And Sillaen/others, over on SOE forums Eli (I think) posted in the mage forum that he thought the DPS should come from pet and non-pet sources...although if that was for the DPS boost in general or also covered burst ideas now wasn't clear.

Sillaen wrote: I was only throwing out suggestions. Like I said in a previous post if you bothered to read it, I know the devs don't want any pet DPS increases atm, but I throw all ideas (pet and everything) out there and let them sort it out. And before you jump in with it's people like you who send pet stuff to devs causing all these problems, no, I do NOT PM devs. I do not post of the EQ live boards requesting anything. I post ideas here among fellow mages to agree or disagree with. I do mean disagree, not condescend, like you seem to be doing.

Just because you never used the original burnout, doesn't mean no one else did. You are scolding people for tossing out a play style by pushing your own play style.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about burst DPS. Has the definition of burst changed recently? Why wouldn't you use something like that if the fight is lasting under 120 secs? The 4-5 secs it cost you to pull out a suspended pet after the fight is over cuts sooooo deeply into your DPS. It's an option, and I like options. Are your buffing classes such dicks that they won't buff your pet for 3X fights a night. I'm sure glad my buffers don't mind at all.

And for the record, I have been playing a raid mage for over 11 years. Have you? Get off your smurf high horse with your smurfing attitude. I know the struggles mages have gone through since the dawn of EQ.

Well, I dont' know of any mage that really used the first version of burnout that killed your pet. It has nothing to do with playstyle, it was just considered stupid to do (this is from many very good and respected mages back then).

With the AA's it takes 2-3 secs to break out your suspended pet, which the way I dps on named, is never missed. 5 seconds is 2 full nukes, 2 that could cost you a lot of DPS, if thats fine by your "playstyle" great. Its not by mine. I usually pop the suspended pet while the mob is being pinned and I wouldn't be nuking anyway, no lose.

My buffnig classes aren't dicks, and its not about that anyway, I have more respect for them than to ask them to buff my pet because I killed it over and over each night. I've played buffing classes on raids, it sucks. Last thing I want to do is add to that.

Nope, I was an enchanter for the first several years of EQ, but I grouped with 2 of the best mages on Bristlebane that I'm sure most still would know. When I moved from enc, I started a beastlord until SoF then moved to mage. So all of my mains have had pets. I have been a raider the entire time I've played EQ. I remember all of the issues raid mages had to endure, and the complete suck that was there class durnig the great mod rod days. You don't have any unique wisdom here.

While I might not have played a mage for as long as you, I'm a damned good mage. I'd put my knowledge of the class up against anybodies.

I don't know about you guys, but when I lose a pet due to enrage (old yes I know they removed that) or to some AE that I couldn't have saved my pet for nothing, I still get angry at having to ask 4 different classes to rebuff my pet, plus having to stop what I'm doing to cast my own buffs on it. The very last thing I want to do is to kill it myself!

FYI some of the comments were not so much aimed at you as others .... just saying.

Savil

Losing a pet for whatever reason is a royal pita. Losing one deliberately? Pretty much unthinkable. Many guilds, mine included, aren't stopping to do loot once a zone is learned. Loot is done as the next event is getting started, and rebuff breaks are "scheduled"...outside of those points, the buffs you get are not the full set, but just reliance and crack/haste from the designated buffer as the buffing classes are too busy dealing with the clear or whatever else is going on. So unless the "pet bomb" you envision were to add some mega blast of damage (and it would have to be HUGE to offset all the negatives), very very few would use it...and if it isn't going to be used, why waste time on developing it in the first place.

Elidroth wrote:Well.. this has been an interesting thread to read. Here's some reality for you. Nearly everyone on the dev team plays EQ in some capacity. Literally every class expects us to play THEIR class at a raiding level. This just isn't possible.

In short.. I have no less than 15 PMs from mages over the past few weeks. Some wants more pet-based DPS, while others want spell-based DPS. There is no other class as split on how they want to do something than Mages. The only thing you do agree upon really is that you want more DPS, which is basically the same sentiment from literally EVERY DPS CLASS.

Savil, I have NEVER lied to the players. I won't deny that sometimes things have slipped through the cracks, but I have NEVER, EVER, told players something knowing full well that I wasn't going to do it, or that it couldn't actually be done.

One last thing, and I can't be more clear on this subject. Just because you ask for something, doesn't mean it will get done. no matter how many times you ask for it. Many of the suggestions I received last beta were simply not reasonable, or not possible for the class.

You yourself said we need Burst DPS from a spell stand-point. So my question is why would you even consider a pet stand-point? You should have all the data freely at your hands, especially with parses that have been sent to you guys. And if you have been sent so many PMs why haven't we recieved any feedback like oh yea thats a great idea or not possible?

To me this post is almost like a slap in the face. Your willing to come here and tell us something that we have 12 pages on already ( we are split-up on pet vs spell) but your not willing to respond back to our ideas on EQlive?

If you would respond back to us on EQlive you wouldn't need to come here and tell us anything. Especially something we have known for years.

The only dps we need at the moment is burst. DPS itself is too general of a term since there is burst and sustained dps. The discussion has been about burst only and I just don't see how anyone could expect it to get done via pets or why a raid mage, where burst is most important, would entertain that idea. Even still, I have less an idea how a dev could entertain that idea so I'm assuming here that you meant both forms of dps. The eqlive mage post was just pure noise as the the original post wasn't even clearly laid out, the OP lied, and they never provided any evidence.

Eli, I know the devs don't often visit or read off-sites, so I'm glad you stopped by. This site is a much better resource for what the mages want than the eqlive class board. My suggestion, if you don't do it already, is to cross reference posts like the one you responded to today with some posts from here. My guess is that doing so could have drastically changed your post today.

Please kick Aristo into fixing air pet stun. It's not stunning high enough. PMing his boss didn't work, maybe you can! Thanks

Elidroth wrote:Well.. this has been an interesting thread to read.
.

Translation = you guys can't get your fecal matter together!

Elidroth wrote: There is no other class as split on how they want to do something than Mages.

Translation = you guys really can't get your fecal matter together!

Elidroth wrote: Savil, I have NEVER lied to the players. I won't deny that sometimes things have slipped through the cracks, but I have NEVER, EVER, told players something knowing full well that I wasn't going to do it, or that it couldn't actually be done.

So a DEV comes out on our side stating that he feels we need a DPS boost (non-pet) for RAIDING magicians.
Said DEV takes it upon himself to read our boards and post his comments.
One would hope the response back to Elidroth would be civil instead of insulting the DEV who showed an interest in our class and calling him a liar. But then Elidroth would know he was visiting the wrong boards.
Wonder how hard he is going to push for that mid term DPS boost now?

Translation = you guys really, really, really can't get your fecal matter together!

Constant arguing -- personal attacks -- contradictory messages sent to DEVs on what we should get as a class to advance.

Translation = The DEV's aren't the problem, we (collectively) are

Guys we need to get our fecal matter together and do it fast!

Sued...

qibrme wrote:

Elidroth wrote:Well.. this has been an interesting thread to read.
.

snip

Well said. I hate to stifle discussion by using moderation (we've all seen what that accomplished on the SOE forums with the last CM), but blatant attacks on a Dev taking time out of his day to post here will not be tolerated. Keep it constructive.

We all want what is best of the Mage community and, naturally, there is going to be a difference of opinions. Lets try to discuss those differences civilly.