new stuff

[Calebe]

Thanks for posting Elidroth. It is good to know the devs see the issue and want to help the class. The issue is that a 2 hour reuse is not a burn as other classes don't have near that long a refresh time and mages shouldn't either. A 30 minute refresh the same as improved twin cast would be bearable but still only results in use twice an hour. I think a 20 minute reuse, so can burst just 3 times an hour would work out. It would mean mages would need to time it right and at times have it available when needed or not depending on how quickly they move event to event. I don't think mages bursting for higher DPS every 20 minutes would be anything but a move to correct the imbalance we currentl have in the raid game.

As for the grouping game, I tend to think of how well a grouping oriented mage compares to the group oriented wizard. The group mage should out sustain the wizard by a lot but not out burst them. As the grouping wizard has every burst ability of the raiding wizard the same should be true for the grouping mage, the difference of course is the rank 3 spells and focus effects (all including the pet focus ones). So the grouping mage should not be penalized the same as the grouping wizard isn't.

It makes sense that the grouping mage should have a burst ability for the group they are in as should the grouping wizard. The thing is exactly as you said if it is not worth it to the grouper they won't care or support it. So it has to help both, just to a lesser extent because the focus effects are lesser as group gear. As to how to do it a lot of good suggestions are on the table, but if spell based compared to pet based the mana use would be a huge drain and when the burst is over the mages mana should be hurting a bit where we will use a rod charge if we can take the hit point hit, and if a lot of AOE's we may not be able to. Or we take the down time to use our version of harvest and drop DPS for a bit. The thing is our pet will add a stead stream of DPS to help mages retain their sustained DPS that we excel in, only second to a necro's sustained DPS.

Calebe

[Voragath]

I see nearly EVERY CLASS ask for 'more burst dps', so I'm curious.. What does Burst DPS mean to you? To me, it means you can boost your short term DPS, but with a price. If you can do it every single raid encounter, then it isn't burst. It's a normal part of your dps. In short, MY opinion is 'burst' abilities should have a LONG cooldown. 2 hours or more. Either that.. or the boosts need to be shorter duration, or less powerful.

Care to explain your rationale for this? You yourself said you didn't want to make events longer than 20 minutes. So how is it a burst once every 6 events? If events were chained together, sure. If events lasted an hour, I'd get that too. But how can you call it "normal dps" if you can only do it once an event? If you could use it multiple times an event, sure. Otherwise, it's just situational dps or special dps. The reason that the dmg output is so drastic during 2 mins makes it burst. If the increase was only a mere 50% or so change, then sure, call it normal; however, the change is extremely larger than that and they are doing it every event. Does that mean you are saying everyone who has this ability currently is OP'd and only the mages have been reigned in?

[Savil]

I see nearly EVERY CLASS ask for 'more burst dps', so I'm curious.. What does Burst DPS mean to you? To me, it means you can boost your short term DPS, but with a price. If you can do it every single raid encounter, then it isn't burst. It's a normal part of your dps. In short, MY opinion is 'burst' abilities should have a LONG cooldown. 2 hours or more. Either that.. or the boosts need to be shorter duration, or less powerful.

Care to explain your rationale for this? You yourself said you didn't want to make events longer than 20 minutes. So how is it a burst once every 6 events? If events were chained together, sure. If events lasted an hour, I'd get that too. But how can you call it "normal dps" if you can only do it once an event? If you could use it multiple times an event, sure. Otherwise, it's just situational dps or special dps. The reason that the dmg output is so drastic during 2 mins makes it burst. If the increase was only a mere 50% or so change, then sure, call it normal; however, the change is extremely larger than that and they are doing it every event. Does that mean you are saying everyone who has this ability currently is OP'd and only the mages have been reigned in?

Very good points voragath, I've love an answer to this question as well.

Savil

[Elidroth]

My reasoning is simple. If you use something every fight, it's a normal part of the fight, and not something you save for when the fecal matter hits the rotating oscillator.

Perhaps we have a different opinion on what burst dps should be used for. In fact, I'm sure of it. To me, burst dps should be for emergency situations that normal dps can't handle. So yeah.. situational dps is more what I was thinking for burst dps. In looking at it again, I will agree with you though that 2 hours is too long. What I don't want is something that is used multiple times in a single fight.

One thing every class needs to understand. Pointing out how another class is 'broken' isn't justification for giving you broken abilities as well. That Rangers can't burst to 65k for a short fight doesn't mean YOU need to be brought up to that level. More likely it means something is out of whack with Rangers and they need to be reined in a bit.

[Piemastaj]

Fire Core currently has a 22minute repop timer. I think that would be sufficient (maybe like 18min or so) based on the events in SS you can not use it twice during any of them except 7 which is still broken atm. I agree we dont need to be brought up to that, nor was I trying to point out/justify rangers for burning that high. However, they can do it NOW. Currently in our BROKEN state we can't break 40k DPS. That is our major problem right now.

No where have we asked to be brought up to 65k DPS either. We simply looked at our current setup and deemed we could use around a 20k increase for next expansion. I have no idea where weapon ratios will be at but we should still be behind melee by a good amount even with that increase (however, in much better shape).

Like it was said anything over say a 20minute repop will be wasteful for us. It will become too situational. With some events in SS taking less then that to finish and start another fight.

[Malleria]

I can't remember the last time I've used Fire Core twice during an event.


PS. You can't be the next Tulisin. You read these forums

[Savil]

My reasoning is simple. If you use something every fight, it's a normal part of the fight, and not something you save for when the fecal matter hits the rotating oscillator.

Perhaps we have a different opinion on what burst dps should be used for. In fact, I'm sure of it. To me, burst dps should be for emergency situations that normal dps can't handle. So yeah.. situational dps is more what I was thinking for burst dps. In looking at it again, I will agree with you though that 2 hours is too long. What I don't want is something that is used multiple times in a single fight.

One thing every class needs to understand. Pointing out how another class is 'broken' isn't justification for giving you broken abilities as well. That Rangers can't burst to 65k for a short fight doesn't mean YOU need to be brought up to that level. More likely it means something is out of whack with Rangers and they need to be reined in a bit.

I understand where your coming from elidroth, but currently mages are the only "unbroken" dps class by the guidelines your laying out here. Is it your plan to fix mages by nerfing all other dps classes so that were out not DPS'ed by 2x?

The only way mages will get within the 80% marker we have been talking about is with major burst. Fights are only lasting for a few minutes, many mages are ending fights with burnout still running on their pets.

Rangers are by far not the only melee DPS class that can use their burst every 30-40 mins or less. Zerkers /w aa's can use SS every 30-35 minutes. Are they broken as well? Why is it that only mages are currently the only "working" class?

How can you go from "yes, we agree, mages need a big dps bump and it doesn't need to be linked to pets" to what you have said here? Even you agreed that mages are at the bottom of the list. I really thought we were making progress, but all I'm hearing now is more of the same old line. Please tell me I'm wrong.

My question is simple, are you going to increase our burst dps so that we can do within 80% of the DPS of the other DPS classes or are you going to nerf all other DPS classes so were not 2x'ed in DPS on fights anymore? Please let us know so we can figure out if its worth it to continue playing EQ or not. Being the only "balanced" class atm is a bit underwhelming.

Savil

[Voragath]

My reasoning is simple. If you use something every fight, it's a normal part of the fight, and not something you save for when the fecal matter hits the rotating oscillator.

Perhaps we have a different opinion on what burst dps should be used for. In fact, I'm sure of it. To me, burst dps should be for emergency situations that normal dps can't handle. So yeah.. situational dps is more what I was thinking for burst dps. In looking at it again, I will agree with you though that 2 hours is too long. What I don't want is something that is used multiple times in a single fight.

Thank you very much, Eli. That clears up a lot of things for me.

[Calebe]

Thanks for posting again Elidroth, it is encouraging to see you taking an interest in our concerns.

The issue of mage burst DPS is a major concern and nurfing another class rather then boosting other classes is the way to start class warfare. People may point to mages and say we got ranger dps nurfed. Or necro's, berserkers or whatever class you wish to bring up.

This as you know has caused so much flame wars on Eqlive in the past, it just goes on and on and finger pointing etc.. just causes more issues then the change itself with the aftermath. The thing is it isn't just one class that can out DPS a mage, it is most. As you acknowledged mages need help, and hurting almost every other DPS class rather then raising one will just cause people to get angry and make mages the scape goat if they read this thread and say mages complained, it is why we are nurfed.

Mages have enough issues then dealing with other perceiving we caused their DPS to be lowered. With may guilds only looking to have 1 mage or 2 at most (not all but the top ones), you see the issue, and we need your help with DPS to fix it.

Calebe

[Voragath]

How can you go from "yes, we agree, mages need a big dps bump and it doesn't need to be linked to pets" to what you have said here? Even you agreed that mages are at the bottom of the list. I really thought we were making progress, but all I'm hearing now is more of the same old line. Please tell me I'm wrong.
Savil

I took it to mean that he does want us to be up there but he's afraid to give us an ability that allows us to zing ahead like they all got. It sounds like he's saying that they all have a broken ability(ies) that allows them to be so high and they are higher than intended. To bring us up to that level, he doesn't want to give us something that will make us pull ahead of them next expansion in the manner they are ahead of us now.

I agree, the way he said it sounds contradictory but the key is the, paraphrasing here, one broken ability for another. In this context, broken is akin to our definition of OP. I get his rationale but maybe there's a middle ground to work here because, using his rationale, I come to the same conclusion as you Savil: we'll just stagnate and fall farther behind. This is simply because they'll keep their "broken" abilities and we won't get due compensation based on principle.