new stuff

[Savil]

I took it to mean that he does want us to be up there but he's afraid to give us an ability that allows us to zing ahead like they all got. It sounds like he's saying that they all have a broken ability(ies) that allows them to be so high and they are higher than intended. To bring us up to that level, he doesn't want to give us something that will make us pull ahead of them next expansion in the manner they are ahead of us now.

I agree, the way he said it sounds contradictory but the key is the, paraphrasing here, one broken ability for another. In this context, broken is akin to our definition of OP. I get his rationale but maybe there's a middle ground to work here because, using his rationale, I come to the same conclusion as you Savil: we'll just stagnate and fall farther behind. This is simply because they'll keep their "broken" abilities and we won't get due compensation based on principle.

I see it as its ok for the other classes to be broken, but its not ok to bump mages to have fighting chance. Lowering other classes DPS is a great way to make mages *hated*. Never once have we asked to be more powerful, I don't want to out parse a zerker / rogue. I do want to do 80%ish of there dps tho!

I'll hold off until elidroth answers my question on what he thinks will balance us. If its his thoughts that giving us an ability on an 2 hour cooldown that lets us only do 80% of the damage other classes are doing every 30 minutes then that is just *stupid*.

What I also see is, its ok for other classes to have broken abilities but its not ok for mages. Great logic. Where was this wisdom when the other classes were broken? I remember when Tonzofo used to yell endlessly about only being able to use SS every 72 minutes in DT (hes a zerker)... they asked the devs to fix this (I'm pretty sure it was elidroth). He put in AA's that reduced the reuse time on that disc to let them get it down lower. I wouldn't mind having a 72 min base and AA's to reduce the reuse time. But the logic elidroth is showing here is flawed, and its flawed by his own past statements / actions.

Elidroth, please explain this to me / us. Because your logic escapes me.

Savil


Savil

[Piemastaj]

I agree, the way he said it sounds contradictory but the key is the, paraphrasing here, one broken ability for another. In this context, broken is akin to our definition of OP. I get his rationale but maybe there's a middle ground to work here because, using his rationale, I come to the same conclusion as you Savil: we'll just stagnate and fall farther behind. This is simply because they'll keep their "broken" abilities and we won't get due compensation based on principle.

This is the issue with what is being said. Just because they are broken, we should be allowed to be broken also. Unless you are in the progress of fixing these classes (which i dont see anywhere that you are). So they will continue to keep these broken abilities while we continue to stay balanced. Leading to mages retiring. Mages had broken pets, they got nerfed by not seeing the same upgrades in SoD/UF/HoT that they saw in SoF. Are we going to see this happen to every class now? I highly doubt that is going to happen....

[Malleria]

My reasoning is simple. If you use something every fight, it's a normal part of the fight, and not something you save for when the fecal matter hits the rotating oscillator.

Except every fight has a time when fecal matter etc. That's raid design 101. Thing's usually progress at a certain level and then at a certain point they ramp up considerably and you have to overcome the change. So if the situation arises every fight, why is it unreasonable to use your special abilities every fight?

Unless the next expansion's raids are going to be trash clears with no bosses/AE's etc burst ability is always going to be valuable on every event.

[Savil]

My reasoning is simple. If you use something every fight, it's a normal part of the fight, and not something you save for when the fecal matter hits the rotating oscillator.

Except every fight has a time when fecal matter etc. That's raid design 101. Thing's usually progress at a certain level and then at a certain point they ramp up considerably and you have to overcome the change. So if the situation arises every fight, why is it unreasonable to use your special abilities every fight?

Unless the next expansion's raids are going to be trash clears with no bosses/AE's etc burst ability is always going to be valuable on every event.

Clearly Malleria its only bad for *mages* to do burst dps. Its ok for other dps to be "broken" year after year. I've never once seen a dev saying how zerkers doing bursts every 30 minutes was unbalanced. Or how unbalanced necs are being able to do 50k burns for 2 mins. OO and their also getting dps upgrades NOW, 50k dps wasn't enough so they are changing them. God only knows how much they will be doing next exp.

Savil

[Sillaen]

It's pretty simple really. If you have 8 DPS classes and 7 of them are what you call broken (I know he only mentioned 1 class, but since all of them are 2X'ing us, then by association they are all broken), you can't just say to the 1 you deem is balanced, "oh well, you're balanced so you're okay", while the other 7 is leaving that 1 in the dust. You only have 2 options at this point.

1. Fix the 7, which is not likely to happen (you don't accidentally break 85% of a set of classes, so for all intensive purposes, some of this must be intended)
Or
2. Make the 1 you left out competitive somehow.

And when I say competitive, I don't mean give us a comparable ability on a 2 hour reuse timer while everyone else is on 30 mins. That would only make us competitive once, maybe twice a night.

[Savil]

It's pretty simple really. If you have 8 DPS classes and 7 of them are what you call broken (I know he only mentioned 1 class, but since all of them are 2X'ing us, then by association they are all broken), you can't just say to the 1 you deem is balanced, "oh well, you're balanced so you're okay", while the other 7 is leaving that 1 in the dust. You only have 2 options at this point.

1. Fix the 7, which is not likely to happen (you don't accidentally break 85% of a set of classes, so for all intensive purposes, some of this must be intended)
Or
2. Make the 1 you left out competitive somehow.

And when I say competitive, I don't mean give us a comparable ability on a 2 hour reuse timer while everyone else is on 30 mins. That would only make us competitive once, maybe twice a night.

Simple, and logical.

Savil

[qibrme]

We simply looked at our current setup and deemed we could use around a 20k increase for next expansion.

Pie I thought the focus was on getting the bump BEFORE the next expansion comes out as in possibly when the next PATCH comes out.

Why?
Because we are 20k DPS behind the low end of the other DPS classes NOW.

If they get the normal DPs increases in the next expansion, the low end will be 70k-ish DPS and we will be just at 40k IN THE NEXT EXPANSION.

We need the increases being discussed now IMO.

Sued...

[Savil]

We simply looked at our current setup and deemed we could use around a 20k increase for next expansion.

Pie I thought the focus was on getting the bump BEFORE the next expansion comes out as in possibly when the next PATCH comes out.

Why?
Because we are 20k DPS behind the low end of the other DPS classes NOW.

If they get the normal DPs increases in the next expansion, the low end will be 70k-ish DPS and we will be just at 40k IN THE NEXT EXPANSION.

We need the increases being discussed now IMO.

Sued...

If you did not see it.. elidroth was just telling us were not underpowered, other classes are *overpowered*.

Savil

[Piemastaj]

Feel free to show them how to increase our DPs by 20k mid-expansion when we asked for it repeatedly in beta and got nothing. Plain and simple nothing DPS-wise is going to get done mid-expansion (atleast not anything huge). Especially when we were majorly ignored in beta concerning the issue.

And we won't be at 40k DPS. We will be a lot closer to 50K DPS if your doing the minimum of a burn right now, quite possibly closer to 55K DPS.

Trust me, we do need it now, but it is just not possible.

[qibrme]

Plain and simple nothing DPS-wise is going to get done mid-expansion (atleast not anything huge).
Trust me, we do need it now, but it is just not possible.

Since Elidroth has been kind enough to post on our boards I would like to put the question to him.

Elidroth if you don't mind settling this question, is Piemastaj correct is his statement about nothing happening prior to the next expansion release?


Sued...