The Magician's Tower

svenalo wrote:

Malleria wrote:Completely off topic but... I think an equal focus'd warder is a better tank than our air pet now

Discuss!

Wouldn't that be a kick in the nuts?

Good for BSTs. They managed to get the devs' attention. I'd cheer for them if not for the fact that what it shows about the devs and their concept of balance-as-crowd-rule.

Parsing pet defensives is like parsing dps. Before, we were only comparing max hit, which is easy to test. DPS, mitigation, ac, avoidance, etc. is extremely hard to parse. You have to do alot of long term parses to get any real data. There can be anomalies. It's worse with the air pet if you don't do /pet nocast because what if his stun lands 50% of the time on the mob one time and 90% the next time? You'll have a huge variance. What if the mob hits some lucky quads or strikethroughs? Sure, it looks like the pet is weaker on defensives but what if it's just the ONE case? Perhaps all other focii are better? We need data, lots of it. Something we would have had if they hadn't been tuned on design lock day. So, keep the parses coming and be a little bit less rash about making statements. Also, don't just say here's my parse. Need to know AA's, focus, mob type (if not on dummy), weapons, buffs, etc.

As to my comment, I said all instances not situations. What I was saying is that under any focus effect, the air pet is better and I was specifically talking about dmg. I wasn't comparing defense because I did not parse it. Though, I will say I see no reason that they wouldn't increase defense as they were increasing dmg. If the defense has gone down, the most likely scenario is that Aristo put a bad value into a table somewhere.

So is the 86 pet a decent upgrade or not?? If you have to parse to tell the difference, then WTF!! The new pet should be a very noticable upgrade. I sure someone has used the new pets in zones they know well and can comment on any difference they notice. Wish I log in and test, but I won't be able to play EQ for a little while longer. How about the fire and water pet, anyone play with them yet??

Gnomeland wrote:

Failcon wrote: Never said pets should tank on raids...

They should, because other raiding classes (paladins, SKs, rangers, etc.) are doing the same thing.

Dude, I love my pet, love seeing him tank, but GET A GRIP. Pets tanks on raids you have to be out of your mind. Not only is that unrealistic, but foolish. It defeats the abilities of a whole set of players, and even more to the point, would push a pets abilities so far past extream, we would be nerfed for years to come. (BTW this is based on the fact that when this game started, Mages where over powered, and pets could do wonders (first toon I made was a mage in '99 on a friends account). We were very close to Wizards and pets were tanking mobs like real tanks. There was a huge outcry against it and Mages saw a huge nerf. That was the start of years of being held back.

If devs are driven in balance by their concern over class envy then there's not much to talk about: they're wrong and their game is going to suffer for it.

Welcome to life, much less EQ.

And it is possible to improve raid DPS without buffing mage soloing (people have suggested making the fire and water pets stronger at DPS but weaker at tanking, for example, which would not help soloing at all).

I am all for that. I even started a thread just for such ideas. Even post some of my own.

Dude, you don't have HoT, so how do you know how things are working?

Umm, because I have mage friends as well? There's also /testcopy, you know, in case I need to check something. Besides, I've seen the issues first hand at the very end of Beta. They haven't changed anything since then, and that's why I haven't bought HoT and don't intend to in protest.

Ok, so as I said you are using secondhand info. Where is the Data you posted from /testcopy, I didn't see any actual parse data you posted. Also, there was a pet tuning just before design lock on Beta, but did you check on the fact that they made another pass on pets during that time. These changes did not go into Beta, and if reported true, they were all another round of improvements, our water, earth and fire pets being targeted for even higher increases in perticular areas on top of the general tuning. That info was also repeated during the live ustream event.

There's no point in me going out and spending months raiding for top gear WHEN THE CLASS ITSELF IS BROKEN because the devs decided to listen to whiners. I don't post on forums often because I prefer to spend the time in-game, but when I do it is because I think something is seriously amiss that cannot be addressed merely by in-game measures.

Yeah the class is so broken, I guess all of us who have been playing Mages are just hacking our way through the game. I mean how did I make it to Convo, much less molo there. Oh and yeah it was hacking to kill all those named mobs to gear my GFs SK alt. Oh yeah I forget, my fellow guild mages are hacking to show up on our parses. Now we Mages, who must be finding cheats, to accel in such a broken class, must stop and ask you, "Why do you play a Mage, if we are so broken?"

Do you have the numbers to prove this? Does this only apply to dmg? HP? Avoidance? Does this mean I need to start /petitioning the Devs that my pet us unfair cause the bottom 2% who have either no clue, no desire, or just too lazy don't have EM4 since it has been given away to just about everyone.

Just cause you don't like the Loyalty vendor, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thus putting the EM4 in nearly everyones hands.

Yes I have numbers to back it up. Read the thread, I've even linked to parses that show it.

So like I said you use second hand data that you don't know the validity of. People are contesting each others data on here, using there own. So you are picking data you most agree with not that you have taken the time to collect.

First off, if you had played HoT, Teir 1 starts at dark blue at level 85, named mobs ranged between yellow and red. At 86 with EM8, I am moloing mobs in Feerrott like it is a joke, so at 90 with EM5 it should be easier, being that dps will be massively increased. Also in Beta, before they tuned up our pets even higher, raid geared 90 mage could pet tank teir 3 red con nameds (I did it on multiple mobs).

DB at level 85 = LB at 90. If we can't solo LB mobs then the class is smurf.

Note, I said I was moling at 86, and that it is easy. You have to actually read it, even more so when you quote it and people can see you are just making up what you say.

As for your claims about level 90 raid-geared tunes tanking tier 3 nameds, how is that in anyway even exceptional? Raid-geared tunes are overtuned for the group content, EVERYONE knows that and it affects ALL classes.

Thus proving the issue, that raid geared mages, as you say, are over-tuned, allowing them to dominate the group/solo game content. It is this issue that a large amount of the EQ population are complaining about. Other classes may have issues also, but Mages are our worry, and as such the topic.

Once again, you've not proven that you have a solid view of class balance and where we OUGHT to be at. You keep bringing up pets to justify mages not being on par with other DPS classes on raids, and then turn around and belittle mages asking for pets that are actually a significant upgrade from the previous tier of pets. That's a contradiction. Unless your personal opinion is that mages are overpowered and should STFU, an opinion that I doubt anyone else in the mage community holds, the logic of your arguments is heavily flawed.

Now as to your closing agruements, you are making claims as to my personal understanding and if I "have a solid view of class balance and where we OUGHT to be at". This first off is based on your personal veiws, and as such, I feel you are rather clueless, having no idea what balance even is much less how to acheive it. I bring up pets because this thread is exactly about that, PETS. I have stated pets are an issue for our class in terms of dps, because classes that tank, traditionally do less dps, the better they tank the worse dps they do (exception is warriors, their dps is to help control agro, and also they get nothing else). As for pet abilities, I would throw a fit if my pet couldn't do better than my older pet, and as someone who has the expantion, I have my new pet and he is a beast, tanking named mobs better than the 81 pet did. So no I am not going to sit here and listen to people complain about issues that are not correct, it is that mantality that has earned us the disdain of the Devs, they don't like us very much, cause all we do is complain we didn't get enough. We actually fair far better than most classes when you look at our total abilities, compare our tanking, DPS, and other functionality. We excel at no one area, but we can fill the spot of both tank or dps in any grp, often times doing both.

As for your last statement, Mages span the whole spectrum. Those who put lil work into the toon, they get lil out of it. Those who work hard and push for the best, well we get it. I was one of those pet tanking Convo names for alt gear, sorry if I made it harder on you but I earned my power and I use it. So yeah when it comes to Mage balance, in group content some of us are over-powered, as you said that is how raiders are.

The problem is, you can not see the difference between those of us who want more raid dps and those group players who want more pet tanking. As to those group players who want better pts cause they don't have the focus or whatever, I am sorry, but yeah I say get off your but and catch up. They are easy to get, base pet dmg is only something that should be used to compare pets when comparing how the focus effects them. If you use a base pet, then I have as much sympathy for you as if you are still using RK1 spells. There is a point when it is not about what is given but what is earned, and I think you should get what you earn.

Format your comments correctly. I'm not reading through that BS especially when your first statement was an out-of-context quote that COMPLETELY DISTORTS what I said. I don't feel like explaining myself carefully when you pull crap like that.

Gnomeland wrote: I'm not reading through that BS especially when your first statement was an out-of-context quote that COMPLETELY DISTORTS what I said. I don't feel like explaining myself carefully when you pull crap like that.

The fact is that is what you said and the way it seemed. If it was sarcasm, I am not reading your body language or hearing your tone, so state it. Also I wouldn't reply also had I just had my whole position destroyed.

Considering you said nothing new whatsoever I don't even know why you think there is a need for me to respond. You just repeated your previous position in a longer post.

But fine, I'll respond to your points.

Dude, I love my pet, love seeing him tank, but GET A GRIP. Pets tanks on raids you have to be out of your mind. Not only is that unrealistic, but foolish. It defeats the abilities of a whole set of players, and even more to the point, would push a pets abilities so far past extream, we would be nerfed for years to come. (BTW this is based on the fact that when this game started, Mages where over powered, and pets could do wonders (first toon I made was a mage in '99 on a friends account). We were very close to Wizards and pets were tanking mobs like real tanks. There was a huge outcry against it and Mages saw a huge nerf. That was the start of years of being held back.

The statement you quoted was a response to the question at the end of your paragraph. I quote: "Do you think the group player cares you are a raider and they just don't have the gear you do?" Yeah, "they should," and you should read your own paragraphs carefully before declaring that I think pets should tank raids.

Ok, so as I said you are using secondhand info. Where is the Data you posted from /testcopy, I didn't see any actual parse data you posted. Also, there was a pet tuning just before design lock on Beta, but did you check on the fact that they made another pass on pets during that time. These changes did not go into Beta, and if reported true, they were all another round of improvements, our water, earth and fire pets being targeted for even higher increases in perticular areas on top of the general tuning. That info was also repeated during the live ustream event.

The data I posted was from parses done after expansion release. It's available here: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts ... _id=169991" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's tons of disinformation floating around the forums because of mis-parses, of which even people here have been responsible for. However, MellRince's parses mirror my experience at the end of Beta so no, I don't think they changed much if anything, unless the changes are all for EM 7+.

Yeah the class is so broken, I guess all of us who have been playing Mages are just hacking our way through the game. I mean how did I make it to Convo, much less molo there. Oh and yeah it was hacking to kill all those named mobs to gear my GFs SK alt. Oh yeah I forget, my fellow guild mages are hacking to show up on our parses. Now we Mages, who must be finding cheats, to accel in such a broken class, must stop and ask you, "Why do you play a Mage, if we are so broken?"

During Beta, almost every high-end mage agreed that our raid DPS sucked. Maybe the people you run around with aren't - I don't know - all that good at min/maxing their DPS? As for moloing nameds in Convo in raid gear for your alts - uh, congrats? What does that have do with ANYTHING that actually has relevance to the actual progression of the game?

It's like soloing Lower Guk at level 60 and proclaiming mages are fine.

Note, I said I was moling at 86, and that it is easy. You have to actually read it, even more so when you quote it and people can see you are just making up what you say.

Again, read YOUR sentences carefully. You wrote: "so at 90 with EM5 it should be easier, being that dps will be massively increased." That's what I responded to.

Understand - you are using EM 8. You are not a representative of the average mage. My reply was towards your idea that someone moloing LBs in Feerott at 90 with EM 5 is something notable or acceptable as a basis for mage balance. No offense, but you should be able to SOLO LBs in Feerott at 90 with EM 5, for smurf's sakes. Since when were we reduced to MOLOING (read: the equivalent of TWO-BOXING) LBs as a standard for balance?

Now as to your closing agruements, you are making claims as to my personal understanding and if I "have a solid view of class balance and where we OUGHT to be at". This first off is based on your personal veiws, and as such, I feel you are rather clueless, having no idea what balance even is much less how to acheive it. I bring up pets because this thread is exactly about that, PETS. I have stated pets are an issue for our class in terms of dps, because classes that tank, traditionally do less dps, the better they tank the worse dps they do (exception is warriors, their dps is to help control agro, and also they get nothing else). As for pet abilities, I would throw a fit if my pet couldn't do better than my older pet, and as someone who has the expantion, I have my new pet and he is a beast, tanking named mobs better than the 81 pet did. So no I am not going to sit here and listen to people complain about issues that are not correct, it is that mantality that has earned us the disdain of the Devs, they don't like us very much, cause all we do is complain we didn't get enough. We actually fair far better than most classes when you look at our total abilities, compare our tanking, DPS, and other functionality. We excel at no one area, but we can fill the spot of both tank or dps in any grp, often times doing both.

As for your last statement, Mages span the whole spectrum. Those who put lil work into the toon, they get lil out of it. Those who work hard and push for the best, well we get it. I was one of those pet tanking Convo names for alt gear, sorry if I made it harder on you but I earned my power and I use it. So yeah when it comes to Mage balance, in group content some of us are over-powered, as you said that is how raiders are.

The problem is, you can not see the difference between those of us who want more raid dps and those group players who want more pet tanking. As to those group players who want better pts cause they don't have the focus or whatever, I am sorry, but yeah I say get off your but and catch up. They are easy to get, base pet dmg is only something that should be used to compare pets when comparing how the focus effects them. If you use a base pet, then I have as much sympathy for you as if you are still using RK1 spells. There is a point when it is not about what is given but what is earned, and I think you should get what you earn.

You've already ranted about this, and it's still not that relevant. You don't seem to realize that class balance factors into what you can and cannot "earn." If there is one set of classes who I have somewhat of a class envy towards, it's hybrid tanks who after obtaining raid-gear can virtually walk into a level appropriate zone pull mobs and kill them by auto-attacking, molo nameds like it's no one's business, and still pull 30+ AAs a lesson from swarm tanking. But I don't complain about them. I just cite them as an example of why the cries of mages being overpowered solo is retarded when it's raid-geared mages doing it: raiders are supposed to demolish group content! That is not "raid-envy." That is telling it like it is.

Which other classes are moloing names. All the people I know are boxing to kill names, only molos I know are the mages. You are right some classes have advantages, and those points can be used to show how we still fit in to the world as raid geared players, and how getting a power boost in some areas can be accepted with those examples.

Now as to the topic of pets, they are performing nicely so far. I can't wait to try out my new water pet. Has anyone tried him out yet? He was spose to get a last minute tuneing, and from what has been stated by the Devs gave him a boost, and none of that was updated on Beta so would like to see the changes. Would be nice to have a viable DPS pet for my next raid.

micker wrote:So is the 86 pet a decent upgrade or not?? If you have to parse to tell the difference, then WTF!! The new pet should be a very noticable upgrade. I sure someone has used the new pets in zones they know well and can comment on any difference they notice.

Yes I have noticed a big difference both in the DPS and the ability to tank. Keep in mind this is against light and dark blue mobs that I regularly farm for AA XP. The 86 pet is noticeably superior to the 81 pet. It isn't a God of Destruction, however. You aren't going to whip out your new Jober and go solo T9 Underfoot zones, unless you are way more Uber than me, which admittedly isn't hard.

Failcon wrote:Which other classes are moloing names. All the people I know are boxing to kill names, only molos I know are the mages. You are right some classes have advantages, and those points can be used to show how we still fit in to the world as raid geared players, and how getting a power boost in some areas can be accepted with those examples.

SKs (and I assume Pallies since they're usually of a similar caliber) are what I saw. A raid-geared SK can SOLO T8 nameds if he unloads all his cool downs. Convort and Husk nameds are certainly doable.

Also, saying that you can molo Convort is misleading. You can't molo any odd named in T8 and T9. You could molo a subset of them and that was with overpowered Pet DA (now nerfed) and raid gear, and even then it's because some Convort nameds are so much easier they feel like trash mobs (while others are so much harder it's funny how fast your group drops).

And if you're going to go by these "hat tricks" pulled by raid-geared players against content they've long passed by, you might as well mention that most of the plate-wearing classes can solo raid mobs much better than we can. It's similarly meaningless but hey, if you want to talk about gearing your alts, nothing better than gearing them with appropriate level raid gear.

Point is: every class has quirks, especially in raid gear.

We should not be made to feel guilty about ours.