The Magician's Tower

that was my point - we need specific talking points

Not just mOrE PEts and such

Name specific ways to increase our pets, our spells, our AAs
If we are speaking in concert instead of 1,000,000,000 ideas, our message will be heard better

deadman1204 wrote:that was my point - we need specific talking points

We have them. At the top of every list (aa, spells, other) I put them up. Here they are:

"As of May 4, we have an OVERWHELMING CONCENSUS:
Mage #1 priority is our pet, our pet, our pet - the meaner, beefier, the better. AA's should enhance the pet, but out of the box they should already rock. The standard for them rocking, as set in SoF, is a mage with a pet from the current expansion can defeat blue con mobs of the current expansion WITHOUT the pet being focused and WITHOUT a merc healer.
Mage #2 priority is mana regen, whether it be from super mod rods, vastly beefed up Thaumatize, vastly improved water elemental form, and the like. The only exception is a big NO if it was an extension of the pet reclaim functionality.
After those, it seems the next most common desire is making elemental forms useful again."

Now if you want to add another (perhaps about our DPS), ok, but as far as I can tell these are pretty clear statements of exactly what we want as drawn from all the discussions to date.

svenalo wrote:"As of May 4, we have an OVERWHELMING CONCENSUS:
Mage #1 priority is our pet, out of the box they should already rock. The standard for them rocking, as set in SoF, is a mage with a pet from the current expansion can defeat blue con mobs of the current expansion WITHOUT the pet being focused and WITHOUT a merc healer.

As my wife likes to tell me, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

An earlier post referred to resistance from other classes being a big issue in BETA concerning whether or not the DEV's give us something that is technically viable but maybe politically toxic from the viewpoint of other EQ classes.

While every mage will agree with what Svenalo said, if it is posted this way, I predict major resistance and political lobbying from other classes to prevent or retard our pet advancement.

Just saying that in my opinion we need to ensure the presentation is packaged in a palatable framework.

My 2cp.

Sued...

Baramos wrote:

Ninven wrote:

We want scaled increases in our Pet.

We need to amp up our DPS.
We want to be desired in groups. I don't see much of an issue there. But our Raid desirability is hitting a nadir. That means DPS. Pet. Spells.

Scaling.

Scaling Scaling Scaling.

The big issue we'll be facing in Thule is SCALING in Pets, in Spells, in Abilities. That is job one.

The extras come afterward.

Well said Bara.
The class balance forum used to get a lot more post on the old boards.
We used to look at things from a perspective of "If a Wizard nukes or crits for 150k with 25k DPS, and a necro DOT's for ????K, and Rogues, BER, RNG, hell Druids do equal to or greater than mage DPS, what percentage of that should a mage be able to do and where should we be ranked on the DPS list?"
Should we be 95%, 90%, 85%, 80% or does it no longer matter to us because we can solo blue mobs out of the box?

I have always considered my mage a DPS class and want to stay that way.

We need to scale well and need to fight for advancement on the DPS ladder and it all cannot come from just pets.
Actually I for one don't like my combined pets RS + AA's + main pet doing more DPS than I can with nukes.
I kinda gives my pets a big head.
I don't want pet DPS lowered, but I think that our nuke DPS needs a large improvement.

Oh and I want the AA that lets a Water Pet backstab from the front or can auto position to the back of the mob.
Why, not because i am too lazy to keep clicking the relocation AA button, but to help maximize the water pet's DPS.
Everytime the mob moves and we have to relocate the pet, we loose DPS.


Sued...

qibrme wrote: Oh and I want the AA that lets a Water Pet backstab from the front or can auto position to the back of the mob.
Why, not because i am too lazy to keep clicking the relocation AA button, but to help maximize the water pet's DPS.
Everytime the mob moves and we have to relocate the pet, we loose DPS.

Sued...

Not to derail, but the water pet already backstabs from the front, back or sides. Unless that was nerfed in a very recent update - I personally checked that they still backstab while tanking not that long ago.

qibrme wrote:

svenalo wrote:"As of May 4, we have an OVERWHELMING CONCENSUS:
Mage #1 priority is our pet, out of the box they should already rock. The standard for them rocking, as set in SoF, is a mage with a pet from the current expansion can defeat blue con mobs of the current expansion WITHOUT the pet being focused and WITHOUT a merc healer.

As my wife likes to tell me, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

An earlier post referred to resistance from other classes being a big issue in BETA concerning whether or not the DEV's give us something that is technically viable but maybe politically toxic from the viewpoint of other EQ classes.

While every mage will agree with what Svenalo said, if it is posted this way, I predict major resistance and political lobbying from other classes to prevent or retard our pet advancement.

Just saying that in my opinion we need to ensure the presentation is packaged in a palatable framework.

My 2cp.

Sued...

I have no problem with you or someone else suggesting a phrasing that we can use. I am just maintaining the list, I don't feel like I own it or anything.

We must be careful. While larger nukes of course are a must, we can't expect a wizard to sit back and not complain if it gains to much on them. Pet DPS on the other hand is something the wizard can't complain about as it is a form of DPS they can't share in.

I want larger nukes, and more dps from pets. I think the pet dps can scale a lot higher and nukes can as well. It is not an either or ball game, it is a 2 sided picture. My pet can not out dps me, it shouldn't. That said as my nukes go up, the pet dps goes up, the rs pet (needs a huge survivability boost) DPS needs to go up as well. We need it all, ask for it all, and not back down. If asked ok which do you want bigger nules or more pet DPS, the answer is YES, BOTH.

Ask for it all, necro's do and they get it a lot. Look at their new mana regen ability. It shows what the devs will do for a class. We just need to say over and over. It isn't as simple for a mage, we need big nukes to burn mobs down as a pet alone can't do it, yet the pet needs enough DPS that the pet is not only needed but wanted and asked for on a raid as it makes a viable contribution to killing mobs, that holds true if grouped or solo. The pet dps is needed to be felt by all in a group, raid or solo. It is part of the class.

The things to ask for is not a raid pet, hell that is defeatism of the first order. The pet out of the box needs DPS to be wanted, survivability to be ensured. Focus items improve upon it, but all mages are entitled to a mean and nasty pet. Mage spells need to be the same way. The old thought of the grouping mage is fine only the raiding mages needs help was and is pure bull smurf. We as a class should stand united and ask for way to improve the class no matter the play style. Let the rank3 spells and some focus items be the only difference in power. I know some of you will scream about that, well some would have, but think about this:

What difference in DPS is there from a grouping and raiding wizard or necro from a non raiding one? The answer, rank3 spells and better focus items. That is it. No other difference. Sure mana and hit points, but honestly if the mob dies before oom, the DPS difference is from rank 3 verses rank 2 spells, and focus. That is it. This notion pushed in the past mages were 'different' and the groupers were fine and raiders weren't falls flat when you look at a necro and wizard to compare to. They have the same spells rank 2 verses 3, that is it, same as a mage.

So lets keep on track, ask for it all for everyone. No more raiders need this and groupers are fine. All mages need higher level nukes. We all need beefier pets out of the box. RS pets need to be better out of the box. Let focus and rank 3 spells be the difference. Don't let that stop you from asking for things, we all need to ask, they can say no. Just for once lets be united and say as a class we need better pet survivabilty out of the box, bigger nukes, and the RS pet survivabiity improved as it is used as an off tank a lot. We fought that fight once when enrage was removed from it. We got enraged for it back, because we do use it as an off tank. It needs to live. Make it better.

Let this beta be the one of ask for it all, fight tooth and nail for it all, and whatever we get, we know we would have tried to get it all, and been united in the effert. No more of well that is to good unless you raid garbage. Nothing is to good, we are mages, we deserve it.

Calebe

/agree calebe

I had an interesting chat with one of the necros in my guild...he says that while he doesn't resort to it often, he is able to pet tank with his EM8 focused pet and all the pet aa's they get as necros now that they got Reluctant Benevolance. This is against SoD mobs in like Kora, and not UF ones (says they don't do well there). But if this is the case, they sure got a big boost in pet power when ours is going down...

svenalo wrote:

qibrme wrote:

svenalo wrote:"As of May 4, we have an OVERWHELMING CONCENSUS:
Mage #1 priority is our pet, out of the box they should already rock. The standard for them rocking, as set in SoF, is a mage with a pet from the current expansion can defeat blue con mobs of the current expansion WITHOUT the pet being focused and WITHOUT a merc healer.

As my wife likes to tell me, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

An earlier post referred to resistance from other classes being a big issue in BETA concerning whether or not the DEV's give us something that is technically viable but maybe politically toxic from the viewpoint of other EQ classes.

While every mage will agree with what Svenalo said, if it is posted this way, I predict major resistance and political lobbying from other classes to prevent or retard our pet advancement.

Just saying that in my opinion we need to ensure the presentation is packaged in a palatable framework.

My 2cp.

Sued...

I have no problem with you or someone else suggesting a phrasing that we can use. I am just maintaining the list, I don't feel like I own it or anything.

Svenlano, again thanks for taking this job up. It is time-consuming, I know.

Sued is right. There is a good anti-flame protocol to use on the eqplayers forums. It is not foolproof, because there are so many trolls over there, but yeah, you have to be careful as Sued notes above.

Pseudo-rules for posting on that idiotic forum:

- Write in a conversational, low-key tone.
- Avoid CAPS.
- Avoid "slang" (like "rocks" out of the box). Any slang handle a troll can get his hands on he will use. "Look at the Mages. They want to ROCK" bwahahaa. Etc.
- Use exclamation points only sparingly. They incite the trolls.
- Develop an introduction that sets the ideas down right in front. Using those you can always point back when the OMG'ers get started.
- Posture is extraordinarily important on that forum. If someone finds a soft spot everyone likes to jump in and start pummeling. Must seem like "fun" to them.

You might try something like this (and this is a simple suggestion - you are doing the hard work, so take it or modify it or leave it.)

As of May 4, the Mage community has a first-cut consensus. The community's biggest concern is that our pets scale, and continue to be a significant part of our DPS. The Mage Pet standard convention has always been this: With an out-of-the-box Air or Earth pet, a Mage should be able to solo (not molo) a dark blue con mob...... (As an aside, this blue-con standard was the first standard, and resumed in OOW, not SoF.)

Etc. Just the facts. You must post in a calm fashion and react to flames the same way. (I personally hit a threshold and start flinging crap back sometimes - bad idea.) Keep the caps out, end sentences with periods - not exclamation points and never multiple omg exclamation or question marks. Post in adult-fashion and be unflappable and keep hitting the facts. Don't respond to troll bait. Completely ignore that and rip it out of anything you quote.

It may be smart to give some context. I would, but you never know the attention span of whoever is reading. Here are some facts, though:

There will probably be blowback from the instigators. Our talking points are our 11 year-old play style (pet tanks while we throw gobs of fire), our low raid desirability (keep that linked post handy to quote raid leaders and officers), the Mage-pet relationship, and niche strengths of all classes with respect to individual play style.

This also is a disconnect between the recent posting saying "Mages suck on raids" (that's a translation - not verbatim) - anyway a disconnect between that and then the same people screaming "too much power". That contradiction is a handle on a strategy to get our agenda through. Said agenda is forming on this forum, even as I type this post. By beta we can have the whole thing fleshed out.

I don't know where all this nerf frenzy has been coming from. A lot of it seems to be people thinking "Hey I can't do that and look how fun that is."

Different classes have niche strengths.

I see sigs of some Wizards around with 160k crits. When I see that I just /boggle. Wish I could do that. But I don't come near that and don't expect to. Pure DPS is pretty cool. It is their niche. Looks fun.

I've seen daily raid parses of Necros that blow my mind, and their Death Bloom and its another /boggle. That mana and sustained damage is amazing. Wish I could do that. But I don't expect to. Major mana regen and sustained damage is pretty cool. It is their niche. Looks fun.

Etc. All classes have a niche strength and the crap storm begins when other people see something and apply a singular, situational niche strength to all situations. Then they say "overpowered". HA, Necro Bloom, and Paladin splash have been recent "omg" issues.

These niche strengths are used in varied situations and it allows a particular class to bring something to the table in particular situations. And they give something up for that. Wizards are squishy, Necros don't whizbang in groups, and their solo power has limitations when stuff summons.

Mages are the same way. Niche strength and hobbled in other areas. Our niche strength has been a very sturdy pet.

That was the original design of the class, and starting in PoP and for a long time thereafter our pets would be instantly vaporized when sent to offtank an add. /BOGGLE - I was stunned. The new idea was that our pets would just be a DPS addition. A visual DoT. Between the nerfing of our pet in such a way that re-defined our playstyle, and the fact that we were merely mod rod dispensers on raids Mages mostly disappeared from Norrath. Lots of CoH bots, though. It was just me and a few others still posting away on the Mage boards for a good while there - up until about OOW.

That bolded part is what we have to keep from happening. Again. The text following it is the consequence which we have already faced.

Our niche is to have a sturdy pet between us and a MOB as we hurl gobs of fire at it. Are we overpowered. Nope. We're just cool in our niche.

It looks like people are looking and saying Gee that looks fun, and not stopping there but joining some vile feeding frenzy where if someone else can do something in some (niche) situation that they can't do it is therefore overpowered and needs to be nerfed.

Anyway. Why did I write all that stuff above. You already know all that, anyway. The thing is The EQ Public-at-Large does not, in many cases. So during beta, that context along with calm, rote repetition, can get you some traction.

Svenlano, you are doing a great job. I would suggest you coordinate with CALEBE, VOROGRATH, SUED, and MALLERIA on building this thing.

Edit: Oh yeah, and MERLAINA. I forgot her because I always get her and Malleria mixed up as the same person.

Calebe's usually on target with his ideas, and expresses them well. Voro, Sued, and Malleria are a repository of ideas, historic information, and are smart and well-spoken.

The point is, we need to be ready, we have to have a coherent written strategy which comprehends where people will like to plink arrows at us, and we must always be able to point back to the written (ratified) document and recite that as mantra when the trolls begin their assault. Rote repetition works over there. So does screaming. If we have a good screamer we can employ that as a tactic down the line. I hate that stuff but devs sure do react to it, and often in favor of the screamers. (Look at Death Bloom /drool).