The Magician's Tower

how does all this reflect in the group game (I mean with honest group gear where melee cannot do 100k)
I think Pj mentioned that we are not that bad off in the group game.
So the devs will look at the class as a whole and see that the boost to help mages in raiding would break the group game

svenalo wrote:Impossible generally means "with what's in the code base currently, it is impossible" not that it can't ever be done. Add some code support and things that were previously impossible become possible.

Ya, IE LAZY. Anybody with a brain knows this isn't impossible. They just don't want to do it.

Savil

deadman1204 wrote:how does all this reflect in the group game (I mean with honest group gear where melee cannot do 100k)
I think Pj mentioned that we are not that bad off in the group game.
So the devs will look at the class as a whole and see that the boost to help mages in raiding would break the group game

^ is far from the truth. Numerous ideas/ways have been brought up to the devs with raid only tuning in mind. We get the same ole 'oh coding wont work BS'. So we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. No dev currently knows how to fix us, and they refuse to listen to people who actually have knowledge on the subject. That is SOE's biggest issues with numerous classes they do not listen to the players and because of that some just god awful rogues got listened to and got them wtf boosted. They do not know how to decipher that person X knows wtf they are doing whereas person B has nfc what to do. And because of that, classes get unfairly balanced.

deadman1204 wrote:how does all this reflect in the group game (I mean with honest group gear where melee cannot do 100k)
I think Pj mentioned that we are not that bad off in the group game.
So the devs will look at the class as a whole and see that the boost to help mages in raiding would break the group game

Mages really aren't that bad off in the group game, but lets look at it honestly .. I remember in HoT I was grouped with a rogue, the rogue had just gotten a t2 weapon. I had 1 rk3 nuke (bolt) as well as having max aa's and EM11.

The group was : bard, druid, druid, mage, sk, rogue. The bard was pulling nonstop (IE something was in camp almost all the time. On pulls the bard was pulling 3-4 mobs at a time (most mobs were yellow con) and staying until we were on the last mob (so I was getting a good bit of ADPS. Songs were geared towards mages.

That said I had to burn glyphs / discs / cast NONSTOP in order to come close to the DPS output of the rogue that was pretty much hitting auto attack with a T2 weap. All the members of the group were raiders and we all knew what we were doing but in the middle of this all the druids were bored enough to cyber each other, the bard was joking around about how smurf other ppl were, the SK was bored 90% of the time (until he would die to pulls of 6-7 while the before said druids were cybering). The rogue was BS'ing / laughing at the SK / Bard deaths.

I could hardly talk to the group for trying to keep up with DPS. If I had slacked and *enjoyed* myself I wouldn't have been close to the rogues DPS. This was parsed by 3 diff group members BTW for 4-6 hour DPS runs (almost non stop for most of it) done over 4-5 different times. All of our parses were close to each other.

What does that tell us? I, a very good mage (me, sorry but I was damned good) could just barely keep up with the DPS from a good rogue. Even with good songs from the bard. IMHO the rogue could have been a zerker / ranger without any difference.

The correct statement mages should be making about us in the group game is simple: "We don't suck near as bad in the group game as we do in the raid game but were nowhere near were we should be in DPS in either".

The only saving grace I had in the group was the fact that when that SK died I was able to hit everything I had and the group would live killing 4-5 yellows at a time. Any mage knows that using this much smurf is only doable every X minutes, and even then its a toss up if you live.

Its nice to have that O smurf ability in a group, but honestly .. how often is it used? Most groups wouldn't have been near as aggressive as mine was, most would have the bard mezing or only pulling 1 mob at a time.

IMHO were not near as good in group game as we were 2-3 exp's ago. The classes lack of DPS is starting to show in all aspects of the game now. Its time we as mages stopped making excuses for the devs lack of atten to the class and ask for solid DPS upgrades. It doesn't matter if they make us more powerful in the group game anymore due to the fact we have been passed up in DPS by almost all classes in both the group and raid game.

BTW: I've seen the results of a casual mage vs a casual rouge ... it was damned ugly for how badly the mage was beaten in DPS.

Savil

In all honesty if we could continuously do our normal weave (ruthless, 2x spear, bolt), we are not too terribly off in groups of equal talent/gear level. However, that is impossible to do for anything over like 10 mobs. Our smurf mana regen and mana costs are just god awful bad atm. Sad part is you will notice this more in the group game then the raid game, which hinders our ability to do anything. Currently we suck at sustained, burst, and mana regen at the group level. The only thing we actually do have is a pet and it is pointless for anything but a caster group that will go oom every 10min.

It is absurd that SOE let casters go this long without a respite type ability for mana. And there are no even postings saying they are not going to keep it the same way. It is quite possibly 1 of the dumbest things SOE has let go in quite some time.

Right now you have wizards doing 70 to 80% of rog/ber/ranger in burst. I have atleast 2 parses showing this ( only 1 burn event atm so the data is hard to come by).

But PJ, how can you say that ... the devs have told us how were balanced!

Savil

How much would we need a boost to be closer to good dps?

I highly doubt spear will get upgraded more because Wizards would whine (even when our recast sucks)

Bolt could use a 2-3k upgrade and make it more mana efficient. As other stated RS twincasting would be nice. But if they really don't want to twincast it just give more of a boost to passive dps thru pets or (the route I prefer) would be slightly higher nuke damage. (take what I say with a grain of salt because I been retired for 4 years on the mage). But after playing highend raiding toons since then I do know Mages need a pretty hefty raid dps boost.

Force of elements hastened AA's. My wizard friend says they get AAs to make theres faster. Maybe we need a boost. Current is what 20 second recast?

Didn't you hear though, we're number 2 in terms of dps on the 180+ second fights according to a poster on teh sony forums.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts ... _id=182230

I love that post. Nonscientific indeed. Probably was one parse where a bunch of folks died and others were afk and RNG was going nuts giving twincasts and crits overtime and...or they dreamed it all because there were absolutely no supporting numbers or parses at all in that thread. What a joke.

Heya PJ, you want to debunk what linkk is saying? I know your the only good mage over there so are you really doing that much DPS or is the guild taking a break while doing long fights?

This really sounds just like the same BS that tonzofo was yelling about (sorry tonz if your reading this) when wire and I were destroying long term parses in SoD. It wasn't that mages were soooo OP .. it was due to the fact my guild just didn't care / have the talent to perform.

In RoI's case I don't believe this is the issue and TBH I have issue with his data. Looking forward to seeing PJ's input on this topic.

Savil