The Magician's Tower

Vaddok wrote:Actually no, my main is a 85 monk. I do have an 82 mage alt that I really enjoy and is why I visit these boards. I just do not believe a pet should be able to out mitigate a real tank when they are similiar in aa and gear level. I would have the same problem if tier 5 mercs could really out tank a real player.

This is what I'm saying. At similar aa and gear level a player tank should always win out on the tanking department, but what about when a mage pet is focused with say enhanced minion 8 (end game raid focus), against a T5 group geared player tank (assuming both had maxed AAs for defensives). I think the pet should outtank the group geared player tank. Now same situation, except the mage has enhanced minion 2 which is end-game SoD group pet focus, or even EM3, or 4 (4 is the first SoD raid pet focus) the group geared player tank should win out the tanking department, but only by a very small margin at enhanced minion 4.

Firen Fury wrote:my main is actually my cleric but i love my mage to death... i have T5 mercs and the highest pet focus, and my pet doesnt come anywhere near my merc's tanking ability. (tho i may not be all that great at using a pet to tank i admit... mercs were out before my mage got high enough to worry about it).

on my low lvl toons tho, mercs ALWAYS out tank anything else... in the mid 50s, my bard can keep a merc tank healed in almost all xp situations. theres no way i could do that with a player, and theres absolutely no way a mage pet at that lvl could keep up (i think?).

It's definitely possible to get a pet somewhere close to tanking as well as a tank merc even in the 50s, but probably only close without surpassing. It will involve you getting all of the top end pet gear summoned by a high level mage though, that can bring your pet up to being a tanking machine at low levels.

We will have to agree to disagree. I do not think even the top tiered raid pet should out tank at top tiered group warrior sk or pally. In my opinion that makes the pet just a bit too strong.

Ok on the same line do you think a raid focused water pet ( rogue) should out dps a T5 real rogue ? That would be doing the same thing to a dps class you are talking about doing to a tank class.

Vaddok wrote:We will have to agree to disagree. I do not think even the top tiered raid pet should out tank at top tiered group warrior sk or pally. In my opinion that makes the pet just a bit too strong.

Ok on the same line do you think a raid focused water pet ( rogue) should out dps a T5 real rogue ? That would be doing the same thing to a dps class you are talking about doing to a tank class.

Sorry, but that's not the right comparison to make, because our pet's are not supposed to be 100% of our DPS, that's shared with the mage. Tanking on the other hand is the survival of the mage itself. If the pet dies, the mage dies.

I think a fully raid geared mage + raid pet focused water pet should out dps a group geared rogue, yes. To answer your question on a more accurate level.

Since our very survival is based on the pet surviving, I still stick to my original statement that a top raid focused/AAd pet should be able to tank as well or better than an end game T5 group geared tank.

Well based on thta idea then you and your pet combined should equal the tanking of the warrior because you share in the tanking.

Your idea that you should tank like a warrior and be able to out dps most classes is a bit skewed.

I think a mage pet should be able to tank but a step down from a real player, they should never be able to take over the role fully of a real player.

Vaddok wrote:Well based on thta idea then you and your pet combined should equal the tanking of the warrior because you share in the tanking.

Your idea that you should tank like a warrior and be able to out dps most classes is a bit skewed.

No, it's not skewed, I didn't say tank like a similarly geared/progressed warrior, I said tank like a group geared tank when the mage is end-game raid geared and has the end game raid pet focus lol. There's a huge difference in power between, say a group geared warrior, and a raid geared warrior for example. And a mage doesn't share in the tanking. Tell me a single mage that can tank (without shared health, cuz that sends some damage to the pet, and can only be used so often anyway) a T4 named for anything more than a few seconds, or can even step in to take beats off the pet in T4+ to share in the tanking with their pet.

Vaddok wrote:I think a mage pet should be able to tank but a step down from a real player, they should never be able to take over the role fully of a real player.

So what you're saying is that a level 85 tank in full archaic armor should be better than a mage pet that's focused by an end game raid focus?? The pet focus is what reflects how our pet is "geared". That is the progression of our pets.

Isn't raid geared vs group geared a "step"? I dunno, to most people group geared to raid geared is a pretty huge step.

Also remember, a pet can really never equal the ability that a real tank can bring to a group for the fact that pets still don't have an agro snap ability, still can't tank with another in melee range, still don't have AoE agro abilities, still don't have a strong defensive, etc, etc. All I'm talking about is taking incoming DPS. Example.

Say we're fighting a random mob, and the T5 raid geared warrior is the benchmark. Also assuming both classes have maxed defensives. The numbers and percentages below are purely for examples sake, I'm not saying by any means this is how the numbers really work.

T4.5 Raid geared tank takes 700 DPS from mob.
T4.5 (EM VIII) Raid geared "earth pet" takes 840 DPS (20% more damage taken, equivelant geared tank still has a solid lead over the pet)

T5 Group geared tank takes 840 DPS (20% more damage taken, the same as the T4.5 raid earth pet)
T5 (EM II) Group geared "earth pet" takes 980 DPS (40% more damage taken, still gives the equivelant group geared tank a clear lead in taking hits over the mage pet)

See, comparing like geared tank vs mage earth pet always has the "step down" from a similarly geared real player tank. That's more what I mean more than anything.

I'm not saying for one instant though that mages should get abilities to start taking over other roles that real players have over pets like the ability of AoE taunt, snap agro abilities, etc.

I think that the value of pet tanking is a bit overrated sometimes.

The pet will never get the options a player has, the reactions, etc etc.

Mages are a very narrow class, some expansions they are real strong, but what people forget is that for most expansions, mages really suffer from not being able to take advantage of gear as other players, since their progression is so tied up to the pet. It is a twin-edged sword, but try playing in a well-equipped group with lots of melees, and as a mage your dps pretty fast drops to pet dps + 20%-40%, because pulls are so fast, and nukes are a function of mana regen.

Pet tanking is situational. Is is very good for the solo-situation, but in groups and raids, it is as said indeed very situational. We are pretty decent in bursting, but when mana dries out (and it will if the combat is long enoug) we drop to pet dps + mana regen rate * dam:mana rate (somewhere around 6-8 according to gear and AA).

I see mages as a mediocre melee with a good nuke-damage buffer, worn in cloth armor, with a big pet as a shield.