new stuff

[Aumeldarie]

I probably should have put it this way to begin with. My problem with this change is not that we have to pay mana for an increase in spell damage, although I'm like everyone else and would rahter have a type 3. My problem is that we are paying Double the mana for this increase than we did on the damage for the rest of the spell. Currently we pay .199 for each point of damage. For this small increase we are paying .404. To me that is like going to Macy's for your whole outfit and then paying $751 for Prada socks To put it in perspective we would be paying roughly 5765 mana for 14271 damage had the whole spell been based on this ratio to begin with.

[Piemastaj]

The mana increase sux, but what did we ask for? We asked for a burst increase. And that is exactly what Spear being upgraded will do, increase our burst potential. It is going in as is, so we have to live with it.

And Aumel, Spear was this high during beta with an even lower dmg then what it is currently now on live. Actually iirc it had a higher mana cost, so it could be worse.

[Aumeldarie]

And Aumel, Spear was this high during beta with an even lower dmg then what it is currently now on live. Actually iirc it had a higher mana cost, so it could be worse.

I was in beta I remember it changing but I don't remember the exact number. That doesn't change the fact that we asked for a type 3, I don't remember anyone asking for 700ish damage for 300 mana. I think it was Malleria that said congratz we get to spend mana for our type 3. That's how I am feeling atm.

[Calebe]

Aumeldarie we asked for burst damage increase and we are getting it. It may not be optimal at all, but it is an improvement and it is needed. Some people thought any incrase would have to wait for the next expansion, and some of hoped for this one. We had no idea but the thought by some as Eldiroth said Mages needed more damage we held out hope for this expansion.

The good news, is we are getting it this expansion and possible more in this expansion. That is way better then some expectations, way better in fact. Does the extra mana hurt? Of course, but lets not be ungrateful, lets not stop asking for an augment for spear. Lets ask for a mana decrease once numbers roll in for the increase we see, how long mana holds out etc... We are moving in the right direction. Over all I can't wait for a patch to see the results of these changes, so we can parse and work on the next set.

It is always easy to say well you could have done this or that. That will always be true. The thing to remember is something was done, and it helps us in the area we needed help in the most. Burst DPS, and as a side it helps the group and solo game by more damage per cast, and killing mobs faster. Sure it comes at a mana cost, and some extra down time but with OOC regen, not a huge burdon. Maybe the answer is not to ask for a mana cost reduction that may anger wizards, but maybe ask for a increase in our harvest to return 1000 extra mana and the rods to return 8500 mana and not 7500. That could help offset the mana cost of the new spells. On the plus it helps anyone that gets a rod, so a boon to the raid as a whole.

Lets think of all avenues to off set mana cost that wasn't touched on yet.

Calebe

[Voragath]

... but maybe ask for....and the rods to return 8500 mana and not 7500. That could help offset the mana cost of the new spells. On the plus it helps anyone that gets a rod, so a boon to the raid as a whole.

Lets think of all avenues to off set mana cost that wasn't touched on yet.

Calebe

No one else needs MORE benefit from the rods. No one else is hurting for mana during raids. Our mod rods were asked to HELP US but they gave it to everyone and we suffered. We asked for advancement and it was given out to everyone else which left us where we started. Put the addition on to harvest, give us a PERSONAL rod, or give us an aa that causes us to be granted XXX amount of mana when we click our rods. Giving everyone the bonus we need does not give us a bonus at all, it just moves everyone ahead and we keep our place.

[Malleria]

Aumeldarie we asked for burst damage increase and we are getting it. It may not be optimal at all, but it is an improvement and it is needed. Some people thought any incrase would have to wait for the next expansion, and some of hoped for this one. We had no idea but the thought by some as Eldiroth said Mages needed more damage we held out hope for this expansion.

The good news, is we are getting it this expansion and possible more in this expansion. That is way better then some expectations, way better in fact. Does the extra mana hurt? Of course, but lets not be ungrateful, lets not stop asking for an augment for spear. Lets ask for a mana decrease once numbers roll in for the increase we see, how long mana holds out etc... We are moving in the right direction. Over all I can't wait for a patch to see the results of these changes, so we can parse and work on the next set.

It is always easy to say well you could have done this or that. That will always be true. The thing to remember is something was done, and it helps us in the area we needed help in the most. Burst DPS, and as a side it helps the group and solo game by more damage per cast, and killing mobs faster. Sure it comes at a mana cost, and some extra down time but with OOC regen, not a huge burdon. Maybe the answer is not to ask for a mana cost reduction that may anger wizards, but maybe ask for a increase in our harvest to return 1000 extra mana and the rods to return 8500 mana and not 7500. That could help offset the mana cost of the new spells. On the plus it helps anyone that gets a rod, so a boon to the raid as a whole.

Have to completely disagree. Mages were fine sustained, and we took an unnecessary hit for apparently no reason. Design like that is crap. Pure and utter crap. Mages shouldn't be happy with what we got, we should be smurf furious.

[qibrme]

The issue with the increased mana cost is that it greatly reduces or takes SPEAR out of the mix on our sustained DPS weave.
So while the increase in burst DPS may work out as advantageous, we have taken a hit on the sustained side which should not have been a casualty when FIXING our RAID BURST DPS.

With that being said, I have not seen numbers for the new RANK 3 SPEAR sooo, there is still a slim chance that the MANA/DPS ratio is worth it for our RAID BURST DPS.

The increased mana cost will most likely hurt the group geared and solo mage most since they generaly have a lower mana pool to start with.

A response from the DEV's on their reasoning for making the change in this manner would be most welcome.

Sued...

[Calebe]

Seems you can't win here. During Beta I made the case for the rod to be mage only for the reason stated. We had the worst mana regen. I was in the minority. People wanted it so as to be 'needed' on a raid to create rods, as our DPS is lacking. So we got a group rod. So now I asked it to be upped to offset the mana of the new spells and it would do what others asked for help the raid. Now people are posting the reverse from beta, why help others they aren't hurting.

Here it is pure and simple. We need the DPS increase. We need a way to offset the mana. I said we need more mana returned from the rods and from harvest. So a total of 2000 more mana, but 1000 would benefit all. If you want a mage only rod did you know it was offered to us? It was turned down by the mages in beta because they wanted to be needed for rods to be in a raid. The aa rod we got now could have been made mage only and no one wanted it. So your call for a mage only rod was heard by beta mages and rejected. Now if you want a 2nd mage only rod on same timer as the AA rod now that gives us back 1000 more mana then the normal rod you have got to be joking. It is not worth it for the devs to make one.

As I said many times we are our own worst enemy. We asked for burst. We are getting it. People are not happy with the mana increase. We ask for a reduction, and I suggest a way to gain more mana and people complain it helps everyone. Which a lot of people asked for. Lets get with one voice please. If they are not having a mana issue on raids, giving them more mana will not effect that one iota at all. It will help us with our new mana cost. If they are running out of mana on a raid, then 1000 more mana will not make a huge difference, it will though allow us to make up for the increased mana cost of spears on the 1st 3-4 casts of it. Sure after that we have the hit, but if we get the 1000 mana more in our harvest, if you cast it during a raid you either have a lull between mobs or are OOM and need mana to continue to cast. Harvest is not a spell you cast on a burn due to the long cast time. Make harvest a 1-2 second cast time and it will be used a lot more often on a raid. So ask for a reduction in the cast time.

So what I asked for is 1000 more mana on a rod. Which is what? 1/3 the cost of the new spear, but if you look at it this way, 300 mana for the new mana cost. 1000 mana means 3+ free casts of spear without using up any more mana then you have now. Add in specialization and you are over 3 casts of it. As said no one else is hurting for mana, so 1000 more mana doesn't help them. It WILL helps us for the 1st 3+ casts.

I didn't say it was 'THE SOLUTION' I did say it was a way to help us on the new mana cost. I also said push for a lower mana cost, but over all, if we can't get a reduction in it, then I will take more mana back from the rod to offset it. As for the group game, with OOC regen you may need to med for 30 more seconds when oom, then again you can click the new rod and in the group/solo game using harvest every time it pops in a fast pulling group is more viable.

In any event, more mana for the rod is a quick fix, helps us, and if what was said, they don't need the help with mana won't change that at all. Up harvest also as I said, and of course lower it's cast time. However if some nay Sayers are listened to the devs may just say. OK you don't want to pay the mana cost, we think you need to pay more mana so no new damage on the spell. ask for a reduction but don't tick them off by being rude. We need the damage increase badly.

Calebe

[Piemastaj]

An AA that makes us rod specialists culd probably be done. With rank1 bought we get 10% increase on mana, rank2 20%. Would help our mana pools while still giving us utility. And I alrdy said the justification: we got burst so we lost some of our sustained.

[qibrme]

Having our utility abilities help others as with rods being usable by all is no problem to me because on a raid or in a group setting, it is better if all participants can nuke/heal etc for longer periods of time, as it benifits the whole no matter what the situation. And as Calebe said, if they are not running OOM now, they most likely won't even click the rod and take the HP hit, or they will just finish the event with even more mana left over.

I am not complaining about the increase in DPS on SPEAR.
Only asked for an explanation from the DEV's, if possible, as to why this was their preferred method of accomplishing the upgrade when so many other options were suggested.

Not saying we don't want the upgrade, not saying it is not appreciated and not trying to look a gift horse in the mouth.
Just would like to kow why so that when future suggestions are made for the magician class, there may be some tweaking we can do in our presentations in order to have the end result be more in line with the communities expectations.

Could be that it is our expectations that are out of line or might be that in order to get the change done as fast as the DEV's are doing it, this was the only viable option.

Would just like to know.

Sued...