master Spell idea list for new expansion

[qibrme]

[quote="Baramos"]
Making some buff utility a point of advance is a bad idea. You say it will "make Mages necessary". Well I don't want to be "made necessary" because I have a buff I can give them.
Mages are a DPS class centered around the Pet. Let's keep it that way. Let's push Pet Power. Let's Push DPS. Let's push Scaling. quote]

TRUTH

You guys need to listen to Bara on this.
There are a lot of reasons why magicians can solo/molo content that most other classes can't dream of touching without a group.
There are benifits to a lot of our pet buffs that are not understood by other classes.

The benifits we give to others are limited to damage shields, summoning items, and mod rods. It needs to stay that way.
If I wanted to be a buffer, I would roll a shammy.

No one is going to pick a mage for grouping because he can cast iceflame on the MT.
I never have problems finding groups.. people actually send me tells asking to join them because their previous experience playing with me was a good one. Same for Calebe and Bara as I know because we have all played together over the years.

Then there is the real danger of other classes lobying to get the spell nerfed once they find out what it does rather than magicians being able to get the spell improved in the future.
If you don't think that other classes spend a bunch of effort going at dev's to nerf us, then you have not been paying attention for very long.

On guild raids we share a channel between magicians and wizards.
The other night a new raid wizard looked at a parse posted in channel and commented how he did not feel a mage pet should be able to do DPS comparable to a group geared melee toon.

As Bara siad, mean pets and heavy nukes.. that will make magicians desireable, not buffs.

Sued...

[Merlaina]

Since I'm obviously out gunned on this I'll not bring it up again, but I do want to throw out some closing arguments before I drop it (because I'm stubborn like that):

1 - Huge difference between this and the mod rod dispenser days. Beck then all we were doing was summoning rods for others (usually clerics) to eat up. I'm just talking about adding a 15ish minute buff. Yes, in a group scenario you'd probably have to recast it 2-3 times, but it's far less frequent than, say, the burning brimbody line. On a raid, assuming you cast it shortly before engaging, you should only have to cast it once per encounter.

2 - I'm talking about a different line for the pet than for the player (now anyway after some persuasion). That way it can be tweaked for players while out pet line remains unchanged. If people want to throw a fit about it, fine, then nerf the player line while keeping the pet line.

3 - The chanter rune point is a valid one, but most chanters will tell your their rune line is almost worthless anyway. It doesn't absorb enough damage to make it worth the dot it takes to cast. Like our DS, their rune line has suffered poor scaling. Just go read their class board (therunes.net) and you'll see their gripes about it. I think the spell I'm suggesting would also work well for them, but I'm being greedy and want it for ourselves.

4 - To say we are meant to be a self sufficient class is fine, but if all you want is self sufficiency then you start alienating the mage class from the group and raid games, and make us strictly a solo class. I don't want to see that happen, and so I want us to add value to groups and raids besides DPS. This whole buff thing was just a suggestion as a way to do that. I'm open to other ideas. I'd love for us to become a top DPS class again, and, let me get out my bold marker for emphasis, I completely agree that our DPS, be it through pets and spells, should be our main focus. I'm just saying adding some utility to our class wouldn't hurt. It's been stated a good bit lately that we should be asking for everything, well this is part of the everything I want to ask for.

[Voragath]

Let's be clear, I am talking having TWO DISTINCT spell lines. Iceflame is not and will not be changing. I'm only talking about adding a prism skin or prism skin-like proc to our DS instead of fire resist. Duration, cost, etc, will remain unchanged. Also, this in addition to an increase in pet power. I'm only asking for a little extra oomph.

Now, how does ONE small utility make us a buff class? Or even gonna nerf our dps? Zerkers get a group buff, so they are a buff class? Warriors get a group buff, so they are one too? Rogues also? Smurf, we are ALL buff classes then!! zomg... And all their dps should then be nerfed.

If you think no one knows about iceflame, think again. It has been brought up by the tanks before and they know smurf well what it does and have asked for it. It's a mage line so they won't get it but if they give it to us to give to them, they'll be happy. At one point, prism skin was asked to be nerfed and how do you think it came about to be given to the beastlords? Not to mention, our original aura affected everyone, mana rods are buffs you click, really, we have always had the ds, so we have technically always been a buffing class. We aren't your traditional "buff class" by a long shot, though. Mod rods are asked for rarely, the mage ds is usually blocked or clicked off for various reasons, and our pet aura got nerfed to hell and back. We are so far from becoming a buff class that I think only wizzies are farther.

Keeping the two on separate lines avoids everything you all are worried about. It can then have more, or less, restrictions than iceflame and being on a short term ds is gonna make it something to just keep up on the MT really as it only procs from melee. Make it one hit for now but who cares? Also, the procrate is listed at 150 where the standard base procrate is 200 (which, according to a dev recently, is 2 ppm and 400 is 4 ppm). And there are way more tricks up our sleeves that make pets survive stuff when we solo than prism skin. The ability for RS to steal aggro is an order of magnitude greater in pet survivability than 2 free hits every 30s to one minute. Seriously, think about it. If you think iceflame is that sweet, go run without it and you'll see what I'm talking about. Mine wears off all the time and I don't notice. Why? Because, really, it's not that huge a difference. It really comes into play when chain pulling or when the pet's life hangs on the balance as 2 free hits + 2 dodges could mean the difference between win or wipe. Also, if you still don't believe me, did you see a HUGE change in bst pets? They didn't see one either yet they were given prism skin.

Mer is right, our dps is not going to go back to where it was. There was a reason they boosted melee dmg so much this expansion. And everyone is saying to "push for the sky" including you, Bara, so why not this change? Every inch we get can turn into a mile.

Finally, not to forget, this is giving US the ability to cast the prism skin proc on US!!!

[Malleria]

Now, how does ONE small utility make us a buff class? Or even gonna nerf our dps? Zerkers get a group buff, so they are a buff class?

It should be noted, Warcry and Zerker aura have been given as reasons by Devs for refusing personal dps upgrades to zerkers. Zerkers are very unhappy about how they've been treated as a utility/dps class for many years. I agree we don't want to suffer the same.

In either case, I doubt Prism Skin will ever become available to players. It's just too powerful a tool. They've had umpteen chances to implement it in the past, and always declined in favor of a set hp limit on proc'd runes.

[svenalo]

Given that the majority of those participating seem to be opposed to the damage shield change, I won't put it on the next iteration of the list.

[Baramos]

[quote="Voragath"

i ) Everyone knows about prism skin, Bara, sorry to say,
If you think no one knows about iceflame, think again.

i) I never said "no one knows" and you're still missing the point anyway. Iceflame has a peculiar efficacy you'll see on very close look.

ii) They certainly aren't gonna beef up our dps.

ii) WHAT? What gives you the idea they won't beef up our DPS? That is exactly what we're asking for, in the main.

iii) Rogues, zerks, monks, wizzies, and necros all think they should beat us out, and sometimes rangers.

iii) Who cares what the (other classes) are saying? We're here to lobby for our class and to ensure we SCALE properly in pets, and dps.


iv) A bump in pet power will give us dps but we can see how fast that'll get nerfed.

iv) WHAT? So if they increase our pet DPS it is going to get nerfed. Please explain why you think this is true.

v) Nerfing a prism skin turns it into an uber melee/spell rune which still makes mages necessary.

v) Again, I don't think putting a rune on tanks, especially on a short term DS which they keep screwing up, is going to make us "necessary".

vi) At one point, prism skin was asked to be nerfed and how do you think it came about to be given to the beastlords?


vi) I happen to know that BLs got a boost because there were people in the BL and Mage community who asked for it.
[/quote]


I don't know, Voro. You sound angry. You sound defeatist about DPS, and you are sarcastic with your zomg's (among other things). I was done here except that you addressed me directly.

I'll just say it one last time.

Mages are a DPS class. DPS is THE criterion these days for raid desirability. That is where to concentrate, in pets and DPS, not in some tangential world of yet another misbegotten "interesting DS" idea. We've been down that road.

Bara

[Voragath]

Lol, angry, no. Sarcastic, yeah, for one thing and I'll get to that. Was making a case but I failed. /shrug It's what the boards are for.

Btw, I always read your posts Bara, but the outline thingy was making it rough on me. Not saying anything negative about it, just saying why I didn't read all of it

About dps, and since you were in last beta...did you see or remember reading where a dev posted about intentionally bumping melee dps over some casters? I could be wrong but I could swear Aristo or Eli said as much. That is why I said we won't go back to where we were. An increase, sure, and I'll lobby hard to get us back where we were but it just won't surprise me if we don't; though, it will surprise me if we do. And I don't remember saying they'll nerf our pet's power; if I did, I must've been confused. I'm actually on board with an increase to our dps through pets and actually think that's our best avenue for gains. I have been confused before though lol Finally, I didn't address you as the whole post, just that last bit.

The sarcasm thing is because I'm tired of exaggeration on some descriptions. A "buff class" has many (3 or more long term) buffs to be given out that are asked for almost always with examples being but not limited to: shaman, enchanter, cleric. You could throw debuffers in there and that'd be fine with me too. One buff does not make you a buff class, just like having a fade ability does not make you a puller, a mezz ability make you a splitter, etc. There's a term for the logical fallacy of taking a small case and extrapolating it to turn it into the larger case. It just bugs me when people do that. It's fine if you say it's too powerful and it'll become a mandatory buff to always be kept up but that's not a buff class. Now, if you define a buff class as that way, then my apologies as we just define something in two different ways.

[Calebe]

You have to remember this was an expansion without a level increase. You were not going to see caster DPS increase a lot, and melee were crying how far behind they fell. The simple truth is, if a new weapon is made with better ratios then the old, melee get a huge dps bump, and for casters unless a new DD spell we stagnate for the most part.

In one important way though mage DPS did increase in the lowering of the cast time on RS pet and the aa to increase it's duration (and how I hope they let it work on the new pet without re-buying it for the next version.)

In the next expansion we want to drive home what we need. DPS from spells and pets. Survivability for pets is a must or they do no DPS, so pets need to be strengthen. I don't believe the devs will stagnate mage DPS, we fought long and hard to make sure that doesn't happen and not to be in any way shape or form any real source of utility for others or buff others.

For long time readers of the older boards there was a time of despair where some wanted to go utility and forgo DPS and pet improvements as a pet was a dot. smurf those were dark days and a lot of us stood the ground and argued for DPS and better pets and won the day, we are reaping those rewards still by a lot of hard work by the beta testers who pushed for better pets and to be a DPS class.

It is why we need to stay on tune, and ask for that, and utility in any form something we don't want, utility will not help mages at all except one to cast a call of hero, a damage shield or whatever utility. Invis stones, 1 mage can do it. Utility is a dead end to make mages wanted 1 can do the job as easily as 4-5 . The only thing needed is a bad ass pet and DPS to kill any mob that dares look at us crossed eyed. If we have that we are wanted for groups, we are wanted in raids for the DPS we bring, and if solo because that is your preferred style or limited on time, you won't have to think if you can, you know you can. That is the mage class. No matter the situation your a source of DPS, off tanking capability, or main tanking via your pet. You are a magician.

Calebe

[Voragath]

Oh, so they were saying that the dps increase was a result of them bumping weapons (finally) when casters weren't getting the level increase spells. That's interesting. I'd like to see what the dps disparity is in HoT.

[Aither]

redius - targetted gravity well - self explanatory

Surprised to see this down the rankings. The amount of options such a spell would give us is staggering. IMO move it up to highly desirable, though it's doubtful they'll work on new mechanics in a level increase expansion.

I'd personally like to see it in game. I seem to recall similar mechanics which were pulled from beta. Shouldn't take much to implement it.