The Magician's Tower

Pet dps on raids is far more situational than nuke dps, and too easily abused in the group game.

Not to mention they're very hesitant to give out mana/end free burn abilities.

Forget the over powered in the group game argument. was headshot by rangers only for raiders? Was the new beastlord spell that upped DPS only for raiders? Was the wozard DD spells rank 2 that crit in 100k range only for raiders? Was the necro dots only for raiders? No so why the hell do mages worry about oh no it helps the grouper when no other class gives one wit, and neither do the devs. The difference for a wizard and a necro is the focus and rank 3 spells. Mages on the other hand are focus, rank 3 spells, and pet focus. So grouping mages already have 1 extra level of raid only then a grouper.

Remember this a wizard and a necro that group get everything a raiding wizard and necro get minus focus and gear. The same is true for a mage. So stop limiting mage stuff becaise fo the group stuff, it never hinders the necro or wizard it should not hinder us.

If you disagree name the aa's a raiding wizard has the grouper doesn't. Name the spell besides the upgraded rank 3's (and mages get rank 3 also), that the grouper doesn't get? Focus difference for fire and magic is the same in the group game for wizards and mages. Wizards upgrade effect the group game, it will for mages. So STOP saying it helps the group game, it does for the wizard as well and they don't give a smurf and neither should we. We need help and we need to stop saying give us X and take away Y.

Calebe

Sillaen wrote:Yes, many might not agree but I'm one of those mages that play a mage because of the pet. If I needed to do 80% of my dps from nukes, I really might as well roll a wizard. It's also been a long time since someone has told me, no pets on raids (not saying it wont happen) so I do believe we can burst through our pet.

What do you think of an AA like this:

Frenzied Annihilation.
2: Decrease AC by 800
4: Increase Haste v3 by 60%
7: Increase STR by 150
9: Increase ATK by 1000
10: Increase Chance to Hit by 60% with All Skills
11: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 600%

Duration: 60 secs
Not affected by Focus
Not stackable with FBO (separate timers)
Refresh: 30 mins

Now these numbers are all made up, but here's my intent. For 60 secs (calling that the typical duration of a true burst) the pet quadruples it's DPS output and it's ability to tank is cut in half. Yes I know, suggest something good along with something bad, however since everyone including fellow mages seems to think pets are way overpowered in group/solo game, there must be a deterrent to using this in the group/solo game. So if the typical pet under FBO cranks out 5Kish DPS with EM11, using this will bump it to 20Kish DPS for that 60 secs. It will also deter raid leaders from ever saying no pets allowed, or at least I would hope so.

If that isn't enough to close the gap, you could also add another hit or 2 to the "of many" line, so our burst is now 2 fold.

But what happens when your pet dies from the ae, dd, dot or whatever other special mechanic that the boss puts out to do huge damage to punish the melee and tanks? Our pets just can't handle that and the heal team isn't working on them, so they'll die.

Burst just can not be tied to pets unless pets are always there. I like the ability but it really isn't going to help burst like you think.

Anyone looking to burst needs to realize a few things:

(1) The dps numbers can be normalized. Fluffy puts out roughly 1/4 of our dps, so we'll make him 1 dps. RS does a little more than that so we'll make him 2 dps. We do the rest so we'll make ourselves 3 dps. Now, this means that fluffy does 1 dps, RS does 2 dps, and we do 3 dps. Actual values are irrelevant because we are only comparing relative amounts. So, when you multiply the value they do, it's obvious that the biggest change will come from multiplying our damage.

(2) The speed at which damage is put out is not the same for us, the RS, and fluffy. We fire off our dmg faster as we can outstrip how much damage is given in a span of time faster than either pet. This is because the pets normally just do their dmg at set values and won't change what they do. We have a multitude of options and none of them provide a short term big boost to pet damage.

(3) You want to look at the constants, i.e. what is always there. The only thing always available at a raid is us, not our pets. Obviously, the one thing you want to boost is the one thing you can bank on.

So, to maximize our burst we want to multiply the biggest, fastest, and most constant aspect of our dps. As I laid out above, all three of those factors turns out to be the mage itself. This makes sense and follows history as we have always been the meat of our dps. So, keep the above in mind when thinking of burst boosters. It will not do us any good to boost a dead pet, no good to boost an RS pet that we can't control so may be off beating on the wrong mob, and it will do no good to boost dmg that will take more than 2 minutes to accumulate. The ability has to be now, a lot, and available at any moment.

Calebe wrote:Forget the over powered in the group game argument. why the hell do mages worry about oh no it helps the grouper when no other class gives one wit, and neither do the devs.

stop limiting mage stuff because of the group stuff
We need help and we need to stop saying give us X and take away Y.

QFT

Sued...

Sillaen wrote:Yes, many might not agree but I'm one of those mages that play a mage because of the pet. If I needed to do 80% of my dps from nukes, I really might as well roll a wizard. It's also been a long time since someone has told me, no pets on raids (not saying it wont happen) so I do believe we can burst through our pet.

What do you think of an AA like this:
Frenzied Annihilation. .

I think this AA is a great idea for the next expansion and I am sure all magicians would welcome an AA such as this. And just for the record, it is my belief that we all play the magician class because we like strong pets. No one is advocating weakening them.

The counter I have to your argument is that a DEV posted in a thread talking about classes who need RAID DPS help NOW and while a lot of other classes complained about their position on the DPS ladder, the DEV only singled out the magician class saying he agreed we needed a RAID DPS boost AND NOT FROM PETS.

So someone says I want to give you a million Euros and you come back with "I don't like the Euro, I want Dollars"!

What is wrong with this community is that if the DEV said he wanted to give us a boost in pet DPS, there would be 4 pages in this thread talking about increasing nukes.

The man said no pet DPS increase, so why are we wasting weeks worth of debate by intelligent people on the merits of pet power versus nukes?

I will answer my own question: because some people would rather see opportunity lost in order to stay in the "MAGE BOX" -- pet DPS must be X percent of total DPS -- pet must tank Y -- if we get nuke increase then pet tanking must decrease -- etc, rather than take a serious look at nukes and what it will take to improve them.

Voragath wrote:Anyone looking to burst needs to realize a few things:
You want to look at the constants, i.e. what is always there. The only thing always available at a raid is us, not our pets. Obviously, the one thing you want to boost is the one thing you can bank on.

So, to maximize our burst we want to multiply the biggest, fastest, and most constant aspect of our dps.

Spear of Magma and Bolt of Rhyolite: Ask to lower cast and recast times by half. (Let the DEV’s worry about whether or not Wizards get infringed on

Clash of Many: Why not ask for unlimited strikes (or at least 20) and all strikes to hit for 2285? Why does it only escalate on strike 8 & 9?
1: Decrease Hit points by 1015
2: Decrease Hit points by 1015
3: Decrease Hit points by 1015
4: Decrease Hit points by 1015
5: Decrease Hit points by 1015
6: Decrease Hit points by 1015
7: Decrease Hit points by 1015
8: Decrease Hit points by 1523
9: Decrease Hit points by 2285

Annihilate the Divergent: Should be the best spell versus summoned or constructs in the game. Raid leaders should be doing OOC calls for Magicians when fighting summoned or construct mobs and telling Druids to forget heals and cast this spell when it is useable.
For starters it should nuke for the same base amount as a Wizards best nuke Ethereal Inferno: Decrease Hit points by 16225. The chance to trigger Annihilate Havoc should be 12% not the ridiculously low 3% and Annihilate Havoc should not be the 32000 it has been for years, it should be Decrease HP when cast by 120,000; which is a good crit in today’s game.
We can only use Annihilate the Divergent in special circumstances so there should be no reason not to give us this increase.

If the group/solo types don't want the increase then make the changes apply to RK3 spells only.
As I posted before, all classes who are end game raid geared are overpowered in the group/solo game -- period.

My 2cp.

Sued...

In order to gain burn DPS you have to do 3 things because it is a burn situation; therefore you need to be able to burn through all your mana in 2 minutes on full burn and get a good return in damage per mana while burning.

1) Cast highest damage spells faster (reduce cast times)
2) Be able to cast your highest damage spells more often (reduce recast timers)
3) Do more damage per cast (either increase the base spell damage as i suggested in the MANY spell and/or increase chance to crit) -- problem with chance to crit is that other casters will cry, but so what, let the DEV's handle the class balance issues, because currently there is no class balance in the raiding game.

Sued...

Someone mentioned something about a chained forceful rejuvenation. I like that idea. Another neat idea that pairs with that is a spell that can proc a forceful rejuv for the next spell cast. If you get that proc, you'll want to cast a back to back spear, especially during a twincast. This will allow us to chew through our mana and get out as many spells as possible in the short time available.

And I'm on board with Sued. Like last year, we should ask for the moon. Let the devs water the stuff down, worry about class balance, and what class we are infringing on. Just ask for the smurf ability and let the Devs sort it out. It's better to start out OP and get watered down because the reverse does not happen (exhibit: mages in HoT).

Voragath wrote:Anyone looking to burst needs to realize a few things:

(1) The dps numbers can be normalized. Fluffy puts out roughly 1/4 of our dps, so we'll make him 1 dps. RS does a little more than that so we'll make him 2 dps. We do the rest so we'll make ourselves 3 dps. Now, this means that fluffy does 1 dps, RS does 2 dps, and we do 3 dps. Actual values are irrelevant because we are only comparing relative amounts. So, when you multiply the value they do, it's obvious that the biggest change will come from multiplying our damage.

(2) The speed at which damage is put out is not the same for us, the RS, and fluffy. We fire off our dmg faster as we can outstrip how much damage is given in a span of time faster than either pet. This is because the pets normally just do their dmg at set values and won't change what they do. We have a multitude of options and none of them provide a short term big boost to pet damage.

(3) You want to look at the constants, i.e. what is always there. The only thing always available at a raid is us, not our pets. Obviously, the one thing you want to boost is the one thing you can bank on.

So, to maximize our burst we want to multiply the biggest, fastest, and most constant aspect of our dps. As I laid out above, all three of those factors turns out to be the mage itself. This makes sense and follows history as we have always been the meat of our dps. So, keep the above in mind when thinking of burst boosters. It will not do us any good to boost a dead pet, no good to boost an RS pet that we can't control so may be off beating on the wrong mob, and it will do no good to boost dmg that will take more than 2 minutes to accumulate. The ability has to be now, a lot, and available at any moment.

Excellent post!

Voragath wrote: But what happens when your pet dies from the ae, dd, dot or whatever other special mechanic that the boss puts out to do huge damage to punish the melee and tanks? Our pets just can't handle that and the heal team isn't working on them, so they'll die.

Burst just can not be tied to pets unless pets are always there. I like the ability but it really isn't going to help burst like you think.

The suggestion I made was in the way of a lowered AC. I specifically didn't suggest altering HPs for the very reason you mentioned, so AEs, DD etc... should work no different on pet than it does now.

My pet is always there. In the raid game 99% of the time my pet dies because I died, not the other way around. I still don't see why we can't have burst DPS tied to both pet and the mage him/herself (well other than the DEV saying non pet related - I get it).

I won't turn any form of DPS upgrade down, rather it be pet, swarm pet or personal. However, I'm sure no one here wants their pet to stagnate to the point of such insignificant dmg compared to total that they just don't bother summoning them, like some of the other pet classes currently do. Then you're just a weaker raid wizard.

Let's say we get bumped up to the ridiculous 65K burn levels of a current ranger (don't expect that, just using as an example, don't expect them to stay that high either). With all burst going through the mage, a solid current 5K pet is only worth 7% of your total burn output. If you use your pet, is it even worth the effort to try and keep him alive throughout a fight for a measly 7%? You'll probably lose more than the 7% just glancing in his direction.

Yes, I'm stubborn so I got another pet idea for yah.

Burnout Destruction
4: Increase Haste v3 by 60%
7: Increase STR by 150
9: Increase ATK by 1000
10: Increase Chance to Hit by 60% with All Skills
11: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 600%

Duration: 120 secs
Not affected by Focus
Not stackable with FBO (separate timers)
Refresh: 30 min
Target Type: Raid

Effect: Quadruple the DPS output of pet for 120 secs at the end of which it explodes (suicides on target) for significant damage (hehe, the original burnout pet - Rage of Zomm). It also renders pet invulnerable to all forms of non direct physical damage.


The difference can then be made up with these, or a combination of them.

Spear of Magma and Bolt of Rhyolite: Ask to lower cast and recast times by half. (Let the DEV’s worry about whether or not Wizards get infringed on

Clash of Many: Why not ask for unlimited strikes (or at least 20) and all strikes to hit for 2285? Why does it only escalate on strike 8 & 9?
1: Decrease Hit points by 1015
2: Decrease Hit points by 1015
3: Decrease Hit points by 1015
4: Decrease Hit points by 1015
5: Decrease Hit points by 1015
6: Decrease Hit points by 1015
7: Decrease Hit points by 1015
8: Decrease Hit points by 1523
9: Decrease Hit points by 2285

Annihilate the Divergent: Should be the best spell versus summoned or constructs in the game. Raid leaders should be doing OOC calls for Magicians when fighting summoned or construct mobs and telling Druids to forget heals and cast this spell when it is useable.
For starters it should nuke for the same base amount as a Wizards best nuke Ethereal Inferno: Decrease Hit points by 16225. The chance to trigger Annihilate Havoc should be 12% not the ridiculously low 3% and Annihilate Havoc should not be the 32000 it has been for years, it should be Decrease HP when cast by 120,000; which is a good crit in today’s game.
We can only use Annihilate the Divergent in special circumstances so there should be no reason not to give us this increase.

I like the Clash idea, though we'd never get away with unlimited strikes. The Annihilate is a good one too. It's been static for a while.