The Magician's Tower

Thats my point Calebe, the devs intended it to be a save your ass AA... but a lot of mages saw they could use it to pull with from day one. Many of the AA's that are placed into the game are used in ways the devs didn't intend. The biggest issue is the current devs are so clueless they don't bother to even try to see how the abilities they are placing can be abused.... (hello pallie AA!!).

Savil

Savil wrote:
For example, Wire and I were the very first people game wide in Husk (after it was released) and we farmed the smurf out of it. Lots of the items in lucy have Wire's ID attached them them if you care to look... I were killing multi yellow / red con mobs at once with just him (and his boxed bard that was idle most of the time) and myself. At the time we had *zero* UF raid gear to help us. We watched LOTS of full raid geared groups (including our own guild once they entered zone) full wipe in Husk. Sad thing was, Wire and I considered the zone a joke.

I've also 100% solo'ed in Husk (with and without a merc out) just for kicks. Again, you would be surprised what a good mage can do when he puts his mind to it and fully abuses all the gear / aa's he has.

Savil

The difference between a molo magician and 2 magicians, a bot bard, and (I'm guessing) 3x healer mercs is just... laughable. 3x the DPS, 3x the healing, 2x the tanking, CC/pulling abilities when necessary... To compare that group to a molo magician's abilities is just... unacceptable.

Ask PJ (since he seems to be the only magician other than yourself you have any confidence in or believe is competent) if he could molo many Sepulcher tasks, or kill 3 Sepulcher(which is actually a pretty low number to pull at a time, in Sepulcher) mobs at once, molo with confidence. Then ask him if he felt a group geared/pet focus magician could.

We do not NEED any more utility

Any more than bard, warriors, chanters, clerics NEED more personal DPS

Any more than wizards NEED a boost to their burn to match zerkers on raids

Any more than necros NEED a beefier pet

But it sure would be nice. And to never ask for it is limiting our class.

Magicians are the only self limiting class there is, and I am very annoyed by it.

We can't improve our raid dps because it would help in group content... We can't give ourselves more utility because we don't need it...
NO other classes try and limit themselves, and is the very reason why we are falling behind most of them, in almost every category.

Your continued stance on devs not believing that CoN would be used as a pulling tool is also unbelievable. By the time CoN was implemented, FD and fade had been around for many years. To believe that devs are so incompetent that they would not honestly believe that CoN would be used as a pulling tool, with the history of ALL abilities used to drop agro ARE used as pulling tools... is just arrogant.

I bought CoN within weeks of its implementation, and was using it to pull the very first day I had it. Your attitude that everyone else, developers, other players, and SOE management are all idiots and incompetent is... tiring.

Well, The main reason I talked about husk was the fact we could both 100 percent solo mobs in there when we wanted / needed too. A lot of times we just pulled mobs, we didn't use the bard to pull. The bard was mostly for pulling some *really* nasty smurf .. or when we just were wanting the named and didn't want the trash. I remember one of the progression missions right before husk was bugged and you couldn't use mercs at all... Wire and I did the entire mission with only self healing, and *never* died nor lost a pet.

That said, I fully understand that 2 mages are way better than one, but to say its 3x the DPS is a bit much Most of the time the only thing the bard did was play songs, and anybody that knows about bards can tell you thats around 25% more dps (far cry from 3x).

As for PJ, I have personally grouped with PJ and talked with him a great deal in game both in SW mage and tells. I know his skill level, TBH I don't know you at all, so I have no idea what skill you have at the class. Hard to use others as a bench mark when you don't know what they are able to do isn't it... Again, that said, if SW mage or some of the smurf some have posted on this bard is any indication some mages really are *stupid*.

When PJ sees this maybe he will answer ... I agree mages really don't need more utility .. but many mages will ask for it (and have for years). I personally think warriors could use more personal DPS, and I used to play an enchanter, they *totally* need more personal DPS, anybody that would say otherwise is *clueless*. Bards could use a DPS bump as well, they are DAMNED BORING to play. I don't really even know what cleric DPS is nowadays, but the last time I played one they were smurf to even think about solo'ing with.... hell they killed mobs slower than mercs do! Wizards do indeed need more 1 min BURST DPS. Last numbers I saw were pretty sad. Necro pets are pretty solid, just a lot of necs love to bitch.

As for the "self limiting" comments... Just how long have you played a mage? Have you ever had your personal parses used as an excuse to get the mage class nerfed? *I HAVE*. Not only that, but they actually DID NERF mages because of my parses that were forwarded to the devs. I even know the Zerker that did it. Some of us look at abilities that are being asked for and actually think of ways they could be abused (you know, something the devs are too stupid to do ... hello pallie AA!) and tell the devs ahead of time our thoughts. I spent around 50% of my online time defending my DPS both in raids and out. If I had a plat for every time I was told I was OP or given hell about it I'd be smurf rich. I know for a fact PJ has walked the same road. Some of us are damned sick of it so we kinda looked out for *stupid* OP'ed AA / spell requests before they turned into pallie AA BS.

We totally *could* improve our raid DPS without hurting group content... PJ and I have forwarded several workable things to elidroth in the past but hes passed on them all ... usually stupid excuses tbh. I ended up just giving up trying, there is a reason I'm so down on elidroth .. and this is one of them.

We are *not* falling behind because we are "self limiting", the idea is laughable at best. We are falling behind because the current EQ devs are smurf stupid and clueless. Hell the ONLY reason they even admitted mages were behind was the HOURS AND HOURS of hard work PJ and I did parsing to prove it beyond all doubt.

Mages are falling behind because too many mages will not call the devs when they say stupid smurf that doesn't make any sense. When mages like PJ and myself called out *stupid* requests like *cross zone coh*, or "a magic version of FC" we knew what would happen... cross zone coh would be told no, because its always been told no, and it would be a nightmare in code to do anywhere, its *almost* as stupid a request as reverse coh, which gets asked for over and over every single smurf year. Magic version of FC is just as smurf stupid, and wouldn't even come close to solving our issues, but would give the devs the perfect excuse to move on thinking their job was done, just like in the past.

Let me be frank, you have *NFC* what you're talking about on CoN. I was freaking around when mages were ASKING FOR IT, and even the reason WHY. Hell I agreed with them too! The old devs have said *several* times that they never intended for CoN to be used to pull, and for that matter they have said the same about FD.... why the hell do you think they have nerfed FD so many times in the past?? smurf and grins??

If I'm not mistaken... NONE of the current devs were in their positions when CoN was introducted into the game... and if you want to talk about *competence* ... well I'll direct you to the pallie AA that our good friend elidroth put into the game. *HE PERSONALLY ADMITTED ON EQ LIVE HE DIDN'T SEE HOW IT WOULD BE ABUSED WHEN HE PLACED IT*. Its far from the first time, and far from isolated. EQ has had TONS OF smurf put into the game that they had to nerf because they didn't foresee how it would be abused. Just how long have you been playing EQ anyway?

I never said the Players were all stupid, Hell when they were talking about DoS I was totally against it, I knew how *I* would be *abusing* it, and knew a few other mages that would as well, does that mean it was ok? You're far from the first mage to figure out how to abuse an AA dude.

I've never hid the fact that I consider the current EQ devs clueless, I let their actions speak for them. If you feel they aren't thats your right. As for players.... I'll let their own *request* speak for them. BTW, I never said all players were stupid, but enough of them are that it gets old fast. I'd say there were around umm, 10 mages in EQ that I respected (a lot of them have retired btw).

Yes PJ, another smurf book, sorry ...

Savil

Something else I'd like you to consider in this too Nylrem, so many times in the past the devs have spent all their time working on *stupid* AA requests during beta and never got them working ... only to rush to put some stupid AA in to take its place, or just nothing at all that many mages are paranoid about what gets asked for. Just look at the big deal that was made of the mod rod super aa and the time spend on it both by devs and players alike .. and see how much time was LOST in getting our class DPS actually fixed.

This is the reason when stupid smurf is asked for some mages go out of their way to say no. Also, when some mages ask for AA that does blah, they don't understand how it will stack with other classes abilities. Again, lets be frank, a LOT OF MAGES don't understand how their abilities will stack with other classes, esp during burns. A handful of mages *do*. So while that mage might not understand how AA / spell blah is OP ... some of us *really* do. I if its unbalanced in raids, its going to be *really* unbalanced in groups .. and you can bet your ass yet another thread will pop up on EQ LIVE bitching about it. I *hate* getting AA's / spells ... only to watch them get nerfed into something completely unusable.

For the record, we used to all ask for the kitchen sink just like your wanting us too.... it didn't matter if the AA's were OP'ed or not, we asked for them. The idea that the devs will "give us the best combo using their best judgement" is so damned funny its unreal. Hate to tell you this but .. their best judgement of late (from SoD up) has been pretty damned bad. Every year mages keep asking for the kitchen sink, and in the end we tended to get screwed.

You say its mages "self limiting" us that keeps the class down.... I'd say its more the devs lack of class understanding as well as the endless bitching other classes have towards mages. Add in a dash of clueless mages asking for smurf over and over thats been told no and you have what mages are now.... *underpowered*.

Name me just *one* thing that mages asked for... that another raid level mage said no on that really hurt the class. Just *one*.

Savil

I've been playing a magician main off and on since 2000, but was very, very casual, pretty strictly group content up til about 4 years ago when I started raiding.

No, I have not had my parses used to nerf the magician class. There is a very good friend and guildy wiz that is quite frustrated that I can now pretty much match his 1 minute burn, yet still do about 20% more dps than him on a 3 minute burn. Much of this is because our guild has almost no bards or chanters and RB is usually used over druid aura, so we get very little Adps. He is strongly advocating for higher wizard burn ability, and rightfully so. If he does post the parses to compare, then I guess there is a chance they could nerf magicians instead of bring wizards up to par with berserkers and rogues, but I honestly hope, and believe, they would improve the wizard, not decrease our dps.

I don't know about UF, because I didn't box a bard then. I do box a bard now... Currently without a bard, I sustain about 12k dps. With my bard bot, I sustain 18k, and I would guess I use it much like Wire did... when really necessary to split a group of 5-6 mobs, in an emergency to mez 1 of an accidental 3 mob pull, and mostly just as a perma buffbot singing ADPS & mana regen.

You are wrong about cross zone coh or whatever needing code. Not that I'm advocating for it at all, I'm not. Zatosia just 4 days ago summoned me from where I was in guild lobby to her exact location in Argath when I sent her a tell asking her to (to assist with her and JChan's testing of lag issues, and probably the same issue with our pets moments of freezing during raids). So, the code is there, but they should not give us that ability because of the tremendous abuses it could create.

You know, this all started from my request for a knockback beam spell like wizards rec'd during VoA (this is the spell thread, not AA).

I'd be interested in any suggestion you have for a new spell... I haven't seen what you would suggest, yet.

Going to add another suggestion (and these are because I'm lookin for somethin different, besides the same old same upgrades).

Beastlords have a spell (that doesn't change their target!) called Growl of the Lion (going to use Rk. II as example numbers) that for 1367 mana and 1.5 second cast time adds a buff of 1 min (extends to just over 2 min) duration that increases all skills damage modifier by 20% to them and their pet, increases their hp by 467/tick, and increases their overall hp by 3781. Not only that, they receive a modified swarm pet (Feralgilia line) that combines that spell line with their swarm pet, for the same cast time as their swarm pet, for only 640mana more than the cost of their swarm pet.

I think a similar spell for us wouldn't be unreasonable. It could increase our pet damage modifiers, our personal spell damage modifier, and increase our mana regen and overall mana pool. Could make it Thaumatize's upgrade.

I can't speak to current DPS levels, but before this exp if you could hang with wizard 45-1 min burst DPS then your wizard friend sucks. Not sure about current spells if that still holds true. The main guy I used to parse against was a wizard ... he could hang even via sustained (both 3-4 min and 30 min events).

Wire played a damned good bard, he was one of the best I've seen. He normally only used his bard to mez if he got 3-4 ... it wasn't common for him to bother if he only got 2 mobs. If he was actively pulling on his bard it was damned rare he got more than one...

I am well aware of the fact GMs can summon you from anywhere in game to their location, I also know they have a different client than the players do that gives them more control. Also, they have used to "can't code that" answer to this very question WAY more than once in the past. They have also given the "thats far to OP to give you" answer. So you take your pick, are they just lying, or do they feel its OP'ed.... or both. *Personally* I think its OP as hell, and feel if they wanted too they could code it, but thats a nice answer that most of the stupid people will accept so they give it a lot (just ask PJ).

I think a knockback spell is OP, it sounds a LOT of like the enchanter ability without the mez at the end... and thats damned OP for a wizard to get. It would be even more OP for a mage to get, hell, why not just give mages root and get it over with. How often can wizards use this anyway?

All of the spell ideas I had PJ knows about, I know some of them have been talked about to vora as well. Feel free to ask PJ for the list we sent to elidroth (that he damned near fully ignored).

I raided on a beastlord for a while, I know the growl line well. It used to be considered a major joke to beastlords btw, not sure if the spell has changed to make it actually useful beyond the first time you get it. Beastlords get that spell every new exp, and the only thing that changes on it is the amount of HPs / regen you get (and the insane mana costs). You never got more than 20% DSP bump, so most beastlords just used the first version they got and called it good. That amount of mana sounds as if they have lowered the mana cost of the spell line to be something that makes sense (it only took the devs 5 years to see how crazy the mana costs were!).

IMHO they should tie that to an item given on raids and in effect give mages an upgrade to the CoA robe, just clickable more often. I already had a hard time fitting all the spells I wanted to use on raids in my bar (and I know there are more spells to worry with now...), I wouldn't want yet another spell I had to have perma memed to be useful.... put it on an AA or item and be done with it.

BTW, when pulling multi mobs, a lot of mages don't understand how the spell version of block, the aa version of block, and the stance line of spells can be used to stack and the tricks you can use with them. They work a lot better than people give them credit for. I know way back, I had an EM8 (84) earth pet tanking The Death Beetle for over 5 minutes while the guilds tanks were resed and rebuffed. This happened more than once.

The only way they are going to give mages more power without hurting the group game is to tie those powers to raid level items (but that still lets raid mages destroy the group game) or tie them into abilities that do more damage based on PCs in the mobs hate list. PJ and I pitched this idea to elidroth who said it was impossible with current code. You could also tie more spells into the amount of pets on the mobs hate list and go over 10, again elidroth shot this idea down too (can't remember the stupid excuse he gave tho). Basically each and every idea we gave him to fix mage DPS he said no.

Savil

GM abilities are not even close to the same thing as what they do for players. Using a GM ability and saying, "code is there" is completely false.

Hello, just registered on web so this is my first post, hope first of many!

Let me tell you a few changes i would like to have on next expansion. Changes i am sure already talked about it coz i see people very experimented around!!
Anyways i am sure Devs will do nothing as usual but here we go. i wont give many explanations coz u know how goes this.

- New twincast? maybe 3 casts? just an upgrade? lower recast? dunno but i would like so see some improvements here. Longer duration? if u put dmg+crits discs up and then use twincast spell and after AA, usually crit fades before u consume ur twincast which is crappy
- Please, erase all those useless AAs mages have... u all know which i mean... and give us some usefull...
- what about a rain AA line? if not, just erase it...
- we have too many DS´s spells. Keep group ds, molten and surge, erase rest.
- mix burnout + iceflux + rune in one spell. like clerics have trio or something.
- do anyone use pet runes but aegis? atleast not me. i think they are crap but aegis. i would erase them all. and will give aegis an upgrade as compesation or faster recast, more hits, whatever.
- thaumatize pet, i think someone started post with that. i fully agree.
- pet affected by buffs casted in mage, not need to be done by group.
- man, our spells cost too much mana if u compare with other classes.... Normally i dont have probs with mana, but i understand we need some improves here. Maybe with:
-- gather mana more powerfull?
-- self rod better than ae one? just for us.
- i would like to have a good magic nuke for those nameds with high fire resists, coz if named have them, we are fked.
- update of senete AA piz...
- please, dont invent new stupid spells like exigent minion or whatever is called...Just listen to mage community...
- improve heal pet spell, its ridiculous.
- drape: what about drape + instant invis + instant petback? im sure this have been thought for many mages. Sometimes is difficult to pet back, run a bit away, drape, invis up,.... in resume, our fade is a big crap.
- but, i will give up all these if u improve my pet dps!!! we have less dmg than wizzys coz we have pet...."fine..." but common on, give them real dps to compensate that lack...just a bit, not big.... About this i think i saw a post asking for pet parses, i will try to get one today in raid and post it.
- oh, and what about to recover our Charm spell??? it would be cool! since lv60 we dont have an update of it, only nerfs! like we suffered in BoT... oh that was fun! charm those big guys and clean around, fun times... Charming in windsong could be great!

If i remember more things around i will post them.

About dps. Necros cry coz nerf, rangers,..... what about mages... we are some steps behind since pop... Spite of this, mages are very powerfull if u know how to play it. As solo class we rock guys. Just u must control some points of the class and u rocks. If u play good, u can solo whatever in hot or voa, atleast i did. I soloed almost all quests in hot, even some missions, and same into voa. voa is harder, yes, more hps, more dmg, but doable. Even i have tanked in several Voa raids... Just, we need more focus and dextery coz its harder for mages. for other many clases is easier...

i think i missed some things, i will post later

Voragath wrote:GM abilities are not even close to the same thing as what they do for players. Using a GM ability and saying, "code is there" is completely false.

Thats my point actually... While it shouldn't be too hard to refit it by stealing code and testing .. its something that SoE has *always* resisted doing in the past, and I see no reason for them to stop doing so now.

Savil

RE: Agastya's Post

Twincast the spell isn't gonna change. It was bad implementation and devs made no secret about posting it was more powerful than they intended which resulted in the Improved Twincast AA. The spell twincast is set in stone now.

AA's never get deleted unless something makes it obsolete (eg. the change to origin which rendered hastened origin pointless)

The mix of spells together like shaman and clerics have is not a simple creation as I initially suspected. It's not off the table but the time investment, when it was discussed on these forums, turns out to be unfavored by the community. Based on my discussion with Aristo, creating such a spell takes longer than it does to create and balance one of our existing spells.

As to the DS's, they aren't likely to go away but I did ask Aristo and Eli to take that crappy 10 minute refreshing one and move it to an AA.