NDA Lifted

[Voragath]

Vora, where are your parses to prove my estimated numbers wrong? Yeah, that works completely the other way also. Please produce it. It is perfectly fine to guesstimate and make educated guesses on what our DPS will look like. It is even more fine when you know wtf your talking about aswell.

I never said they were wrong.

[Savil]

I understand what your driving at, I honestly do. I've even cut the devs breaks in the past. Look at it this way, my main toons in EQ were : Enchanter, Beastlord, Magician.

Enchanters were screwed over hard core int he past, and currently have LOTS of issues making playing them very boring.

Beastlords were almost worthless for like 2-3 years, and still (IMHO) not fixed. They tossed a very broken ability at them that helped to massively break other melee and really screwed up the game.

Magicians have been what I consider broken from SoD up. UF was released in DEC 2009, its now DEC 2011 and for that full 2 years magicians have been asking for the class to be fixed due to have broken we have become.

Moreover, even in SoF / SoD timeframe we were pretty broken, but at least the class was improving due to upgrades. Look back guys, how many magicians in SoF / SoD were part of their guilds top 5 / top 10 DPS?? Very very few. This is using data from the games top 10 guilds BTW.

Now many people would point out that Wire and I were usually top 5 in SoD parsing. This is true, and I know that about 3-4 other mages were in their guilds top 10 as well. Problem is this: Wire and I worked our asses off to get that DPS. Wire also boxed a bard. We did lots of things to get that DPS. At the same time our guilds melee pretty much turned on auto attack and yelled and were still close at times.

A few other facts were: my guilds DPS outside of like 2-3 of them ... well... sucked ass. Our wizards / necs were freaking lazy and never really pushed. Now our zerkers pushed and really tried but most of our fights were long and that means we were mostly pushing sustained fights. We all know back then mages were very solid on sustained DPS (not so much anymore).

Around UF most mages started really seeing how badly mage DPS was getting and started yelling about it. Its been 2 full years and still no real fixes in sight. We have went way way beyond McDonalds by this point. I've personally seen 2 full years of promises to address our DPS issues, with the last year of that even having devs openly admitting our DPS was low as well as other classes saying mage DPS was stupid low.

I guess a simple way of putting it is this: how much time needs to pass before the devs / some members of the players base stop making promises / excuses for mage DPS and actually do something solid to fix it?

IMHO a good case in point is this: the mage clickie pets could have been a fun / interesting way to help fix mage DPS. What did we get? substandard pets that do complete crap DPS. It took PJ like 1 hour to figure out how low DPS they were. I fell to see how the DEV that introduced that spell couldn't see how low the DPS from it would be before it set the numbers up. Why release a spell you know people aren't going to be happy with and people will bitch about when you could just release something that works in its place?

The entire thing is becoming a joke.

Savil

[Savil]

Vora, where are your parses to prove my estimated numbers wrong? Yeah, that works completely the other way also. Please produce it. It is perfectly fine to guesstimate and make educated guesses on what our DPS will look like. It is even more fine when you know wtf your talking about aswell.

I never said they were wrong.

Vora, thats kinda goofy. I don't care if I parsed out those numbers myself or used a source that I trusted to provide them. The fact stands, the DPS is crap, our badly out DPS'ed by other classes. Instead of answering the facts you used misdirection to avoid the question. Sounds pretty much like spin to me.

Its amazing how much like tuli you have become in just 2 months ... this is sad, I had really hoped you would be good for the class in this position. Please take the time to *answer* vs spin. If I'm wrong call me on it with facts and lets figure this out. The class can only gain from it.

Savil

[Voragath]

"Also, people need to get off this "players run eq" mentality."

This kind of stuff always makes me angry. I run a company IRL, if I had the same stupid idea and didn't pay atten to my customers feedback I'd be out of business so fast... the very idea of this is beyond stupid. Simple question for you vora... *why do you think EQ is in the current state its in now?* Because far to much input was ignored (IMHO). At some level or another you always answer to your customers, anybody that feels otherwise is stupid.

I have worked for many companies that take this mentality and are very successful. Most people have no idea how a company works or how to run one and their ideas are completely asinine at times. They also often times make suggestions that would hurt the company. So, for them to give the players control is, interestingly enough, a death sentence to eq. Being a CRT, I get plenty of wind of many suggestions and I can tell you the players suck at it.

Just not sure where your getting mage conspiracy ... I questioned a few things and your yelling conspiracy?? No where did I say such. I have stated many times I felt the devs were OUT OF TOUCH with the class ..and that we were not the only class I felt this way about. How you get conspiracy out of that I'll never know. I feel the devs do things without fully researching them and make a lot of very preventable mistakes. I know for a fact I'm not alone in this line of thought. You YOURSELF have said as much in the past in SW mage.

This was not directed at you but an overall mentality some people are taking. Yes, sometimes the devs make their own decisions as it is their job. They are the developers and they are charged with the task of designing things for a game that they hope people will enjoy and thus buy. Sometimes they are good, sometimes bad, but that doesn't mean they are out to get us. The only problem devs have had thus far with this class is they didn't have one person to go to for information.

Very simple question again Vora, no spin.... if a mage like PJ can do around 60-65K DPS now (from PJ) and rogues are pushing out over 90K DPS (no major upgrades other than aa / level) what do you think they can do that will come even close to closing the gape once rogues get access to their end game weaps?? End game they will be doing over 100K DPS ... even PJ agrees with this number. Most mages (forgive me guys) aren't DPS mages and can't push out the level of dmg that PJ is talking so I can see some mages being fully 2x'ed on a 2 min burn fight with mages like PJ being 30-40k dps down.

I'd love a solid answer on this, no spin. PJ says he feels it was a good start on other areas, some of that I agree with, clickie pets ie isn't a bad start. Unlinked spears is cool. All of this gets us no where near the DPS the class needs to be doing, and whats more I don't see any way of correcting this at this point. Please correct my logic.

Savil

I'm not sure why you are comparing us to rogues. Rogues are not our caster competitors unless you are equating rogues to wizards. If not, I hardly see how rogue dps is relevant as they are designed to be more dps than us and the gap is what the devs want and it's up to them if it's too large/small; if you are equating rog to wiz, then I'd say I'd have to see wiz doing this also but I'm sure they won't and the reason melee jump so high is from some bugs and crappy % boosters that have been in game far too long.

Melee dps is a serious issue atm for everyone and unless the devs stagnate every melee class for 2 expansions or remove all the % stuff (either outright or by changing it to flat gains) then it's gonna be screwed up like this for awhile. This has me very concerned as it is hurting more than just our class. So far, the devs have managed to keep from repeating the zerker fiasco but they have failed to fix it. They have ideas but are trying not to screw over other classes in fixing it and it would effect our pet's dps so them not screwing over other classes would actually be them not screwing over mages too.

[Voragath]

Yes, but look at it this way. Dev walks in to work today and has a pile from each class to work on. Let's say he has decided it is mage day, so he works on mage stuff. The pile is somewhat huge, he has limited time, and he has to choose to work on one thing in order for it to make the next cut. Just what thing should he pick? Or should he pick the low hanging fruit for each issue that gets some help coming for each thing but not near enough to solve any one thing? Then you multiply that decision by the number of classes and other things that need to be worked on as dictated by management, and you get what we got.

These days I am on the management side of the desk in my own company, so I know that I drive my staff crazy when I walk in and say "this is the way it is" on whatever project and cut things off or whatever. But business reasons dictate my decisions. Similarly when I was on the staff side of the desk for years and years, and had a pile of software features and bug fixes to work on each day, and management would create the artificial cut deadline and set priorities, I would live through that FUBAR'd situation of trying to decide what actually could get done, tested, fixed after test, QA'd, and potentially fixed again before cut occurred for a release/patch. And in neither of those situations did I not care that the users of the software didn't get what they wanted in a given release, but they got what was possible to get done in the time allotted.

So we are frustrated and the devs are frustrated and we just have to make the best of the situation. It took years for the state of the game to evolve to their current situation and it is going to take a similar length of time to take care of the problems that have in many cases become mortared into the very bedrock of the game code. Do I wish it was a McDonald's fix? Sure. But that is not the reality for most things.

This is someone who gets it. Couldn't have been better stated. What people don't realize is there is one spell dev for all classes, one aa dev for all classes, one item dev for all classes, one TS dev for all TS's. That's it. Well, there are more but they aren't directly related to class issues and stuff.

[Savil]

I actually understand that there is 1 dev for each area... I also see time that has went by without a fix. I also understand that melee DPS is a result of the devs placing things into the game without full research and thus breaking stuff. IE my comment about beastlords. Wizards / Necs destroy us on DPS as well. Last exp wizards were able to break 55k DPS for 90 secs, I've seen the parses. I'm pretty sure if you ask PJ he will say he never came close to that even with full game gear. We are last on DPS no matter which your looking at, casters or melee.

I talk about rogues because its the amount of DPS difference they are to us. Yes I understand that most melee out DPS's wizards / necs as well, but its not NEAR as bad. I remember a post I did outlining avg raid DPS by class about 8-9 months ago on this very board, in it YOU agreed with most of my points and said it was very wrong. You were vocal in SW mage about how unbalanced it was and agreed VoA would most likely be a make or break exp for mages. Whats changed? O, our a CL now... *grin*.

I remember when I first started running D&D games, one of the first rules I remember reading was simple: beware what you place in the game, have a full understanding of what it can do, because removing it can be a major PITA and leaving it can destroy your game. Sounds pretty simple doesn't it?

Please don't turn that statement around on me and claim "thats why they aren't rushing to fix this, they don't want to break us or put something in they have to take out" ... thats never stoped them before but more to the point, its been 2-3 years now. Any dev worth a smurf can fix something in 2-3 years, if not maybe they need new devs. I only wish my customers would give me 2-3 years to solve problems... hell any problem, much less some of the stupid simple problems I see sneaking into EQ during of all things... *beta testing*.

I still can't believe that something as simple as basic AA upgrades was missed, and a core AA at that: Hello fury of magic upgrades.

Savil

[Voragath]

Is our mana regen fix in today? Is it going to be in December? If you have no answer for that, then currently it is being neglected. We do not need it in 6 months, it is needed now. Talking about it now, and then we get it 6 months down the line is the same thing as not talking about it for 6 months and then getting it. It will not be in-game for a period of time, therefore currently we are being neglected mana regen that we need and that we specifically said we needed in beta. (or you can replace NEGLECTED by IGNORED if you would rather use your own word).

Pets are also not getting destroyed by named. Some named will get a good round in and AE at the same time and it gets rough but by no means destroyed.

Your whole mind-set in beta was astounding to me to say the least. And it is carrying over all too well here on live aswell. That is by no way a compliment either. I am frankly beyond done trying to discuss mage topics with you, you have mainly one way to look at things and that is your way. I will choose to go and talk with Elidroth about issues and concepts pertaining to the mage class.

You know I can't answer about what's being done. Attacking me for not stating anything more than I'm discussing it is disingenuous. Also, to that effect, there are things that were championed for years ago that are still being implemented. It just takes time and has to line up with what the team wants sometimes. I don't like it anymore than anyone else does.

And I don't appreciate personal attacks based on false facts. What mindset in beta? I have not done one thing for myself. The only person I can even begin to say is in it for themselves would require a monumental stretch to make the accusation. If I were in it for myself, I wouldn't be a CRT because I'd be counter-productive there and get booted. If I were in it for myself, I'd be asking for better long term dps since my guild's dps is so craptastic we put out 1/3 the dps of guilds like PJ's. If I were in it for myself, I wouldn't have given ideas to Florencia and agreed with Flo that chanters should get some caster adps. If I were in it for myself, I wouldn't be having this conversation on this board. So far, I have been on the devs about the 2 things mages care about right now: DPS first, mana issues 2nd. Did I miss something? Is that not what the class wants? I see it everywhere and hear it from everyone so if I missed something, let me know. I'll change the agenda.

Also, no one in this forum has any idea what I have/haven't done for this class. That's what Eli was getting at. He was basically telling everyone here that the CRT's are far more influential than some realize. Anyone to assume they know what I have or haven't done is either delusional or just a flat out liar.

[Savil]

Just to point out something simple vora... PJ *never* said you were in it for yourself. He said "you have mainly one way to look at things and that is your way." If you had read before responding you would understand what he was trying to tell you.

I admit we have no idea what you have / haven't done for the mage class behind closed doors. I do see what you have "done" on this board and remember what you had "done" in SW mage. Some basic facts: the changes that have went in were things PJ and I were talking about 9 months ago. Please point out what you have done so that we can all be enlightened.

DPS has *always* been at the top of the list mages have wanted vora, its been that way for the last 3 freaking years. Same with mana regen. The devs already knew this as they have been told it over and over by myself / Wire / PJ.

"there are things that were championed for years ago that are still being implemented"

Please name one thing in this list. I don't see that much being done on the DPS side, and vora, I don't have to be active in EQ to know whats going on in EQ. I was playing for years and touched base with so many people you would be very mistaken to keep suggesting I don't have a pretty good idea whats going on.

You have yet to answer questions with more than spin. Simple facts vora:

* mages while being a DPS class (anybody that says were utility is stupid) is currently last. This is both with melee and casters.
* mages have the lowest mana regen of any of the caster classes. If you actually try to use the 2x spear weave you still lose big time on DPS and run OOM so fast its stupid. This is coming from mages with 60K + mana pools. So those in lower end guilds have ZERO chance and even worse DPS.

* mages have been asking for these 2 things to be fixed for several years now.

In the past you were one of those very mages that said it was stupid how long it was taking to fix the class. Now that you are a CRT you have suddenly become understanding..

Direct question time:

* do you feel mages are where they need to be for DPS vs other casters and vs melee?
* do you feel our mana regen is anywhere NEAR good?
* do you feel you provide your raid guild with solid DPS for the good of the raid? IE when your gone does it make any difference to your guild other than "friendship" issues?
* do you feel mages are mostly around to give mod rods to your guild?
* do you feel most mages are happy with the role they have on raids / groups?
* do you feel that 3 freaking years is pretty much long enough for at least SOME headway to be made on these issues?

Try to answer without spin. Don't defend the devs / Soe. Its important for other mages to know you understand the issues facing us and that you aren't a yes man. If mages start to see you as that any use you had to SoE is pretty much gone as nobody will talk to you openly.

Savil

[svenalo]

Vora, you have a thankless job as do the devs. Let me thank you and them for putting up with this stuff. And Savil, you know smurf well that Vora is on "our side" in all this - stop painting him as having gone over to the dark side or having been caught up in some evil plot. This is exactly the kind of crap that makes people not want to do the job at all (and it is a JOB and unpaid at that), and causes all the fragmentation and bs that causes us to be ignored in the first place while other groups get their agendas and items addressed. So you want us ignored, then by all means carry on.

[Voragath]

Vora, you have a thankless job as do the devs. Let me thank you and them for putting up with this stuff. And Savil, you know smurf well that Vora is on "our side" in all this - stop painting him as having gone over to the dark side or having been caught up in some evil plot. This is exactly the kind of crap that makes people not want to do the job at all (and it is a JOB and unpaid at that), and causes all the fragmentation and bs that causes us to be ignored in the first place while other groups get their agendas and items addressed. So you want us ignored, then by all means carry on.

Thanks, Sven.