new stuff

[Danille]

The post would have been much better without all the BS added in. It is a shame that so much flaming distorts the truth.

One statement is debunked by these two recent posts:

Get to Know a Dev Introduces: Associate Game Designer Julie “Ellie” Burness
Get to Know a Dev: Assistant Lead Programmer Jennifer “JChan” Chan Questions Answered

[Goranothos]

I haven't raided in years (though I used to back in Kunark/Luclin/PoP), and I'm the biggest slacker in the game, and even I can see that raid mages need help badly. I remember when mages became almost extinct. Hope that doesn't happen again.

[Savil]

The post would have been much better without all the BS added in. It is a shame that so much flaming distorts the truth.

One statement is debunked by these two recent posts:

Get to Know a Dev Introduces: Associate Game Designer Julie “Ellie” Burness
Get to Know a Dev: Assistant Lead Programmer Jennifer “JChan” Chan Questions Answered

Please tell me which parts were "BS". If you still believe the stuff the gms are saying your part of the problem. I stand by my post, if you care to call out specific parts of it that were incorrect please do so, if I'm wrong, I'll be the first to say as much.

How many times do the devs have to lie to us before people get the point?

I know for a fact the #'s aren't wrong. I'll look forward to seeing you post about this.

Savil

Read your 2 posts you referenced, both claim they still play EQ.

"I have a character in every class. Of course with so many different classes I can find one to fit any mood I am in or to accommodate any group I go wandering about Norrath looking for adventure with. Each class has their strengths and weaknesses and part of the enjoyment for me is playing each class in their current state and seeing how the balance changes across time."

This actually surprised me until I saw this was one of the EQ programmers, not part of the normal "dev" team like elidroth is. Still it does surprise me that any of them play at all. Many of them have said point blank they don't play (this includes elidroth).

So I will I will give you, 1 "Associate" game dev plays, 1 coder plays. How many does that leave? Of all the things said in the post the ONLY thing you picked at was the fact that 2 people actually played / used the product they work on out of how many people? I hope you can do better than this. Still looking forward to your next post.

[Danille]

Much that I hate to say it, I see this next exp as the death of the mage class as we know it.

While this statement was made to incite drama and create a desired effect, it is after all inaccurate. let me fix it for you:

Much that I hate to say it, I see this next exp as the death of the raidng mage as we know it.

[Savil]

Much that I hate to say it, I see this next exp as the death of the mage class as we know it.

While this statement was made to incite drama and create a desired effect, it is after all inaccurate. let me fix it for you:

Much that I hate to say it, I see this next exp as the death of the raidng mage as we know it.

Its a shame your so short sighted. Its not very hard to see how what hurts the raiding mage will at some point hurt the grouping mage. Its starts with raiders, it will end with group / solo.

Again, you stated "The post would have been much better without all the BS added in". Where is "all the BS". If this is your example of "all the BS" .. wow. From your response I can gather your major objection was the fact that its only raiders getting hurt atm, and not groupers. And that 2 people that work on EQ actually play the game. Given how many times I said the word "raid / raider" would assume you would be smart enough to understand I'm talking about raiders.

Is this all you can respond with? Seriously? While the issues I posted about mostly effect raid mages it doesn't take much to understand how they will hit groupers at some point.

Again, I invite you to actually post a real response. If you take issue with the points I listed post them. If you just have a problem with the way they were said say that. Saying that my post was mostly "BS" was a dodge. How about you try a real response next time... Put some actual thought into it.

Savil

[Danille]

Mostly? Oh really? Tell me where was that said?

Or did I say this?

The post would have been much better without all the BS added in. It is a shame that so much flaming distorts the truth.

Yes there is truth underneath the flamming attitude and BS.

[Savil]

Mostly? Oh really? Tell me where was that said?
Yes there is truth underneath the flamming attitude and BS.

Flaming, I might have flamed a few people, but nothing said wasn't true. The only person I even said by name was tuli, and I'm not alone on my thoughts there. Again, sorry tuli, but its the truth. What I saw was you pretty much dismissing my post out of hand. If you just took issue with HOW I said what I did, I'm sorry.

Far to much time has been wasted with everybody trying to be PC. I'm not interested in being PC at all, mostly cause I want something to actually be done for a change. I'm sick of people asking for super pets, I'm sick of people only after what will make there play style better. A lot of people are only thinking about themselves and being nice hasn't worked one bit.

Many people feel the same. Lets address the issues and try to get us on the same page, or this next beta will be a nightmare, just like the last 2 have been.

Savil

[svenalo]

How many times do the devs have to lie to us before people get the point?

That's a bit strongly worded. They tell us what they can and what they know at a given time. That they then get overruled by management or business directions, or are runover by something they missed or a interaction unseen or a plan they were not aware of, does not mean they lied. People make mistakes, and the devs are people.

We have an example of this right here in this thread. We could all say "you lied" when you said none of them play. Actually you didn't lie unless you know full well they did and then posted the opposite. Instead what is more likely is you posted what you though was the correct information but were mistaken. Given how businesses operate, and don't ever forget that SOE is first and foremost a business, the devs are going to run into that buzzsaw on a regular basis.

Additionally, with regard to playing the game, all the devs are required to play it - there is a post to that effect over in the SOE forums somewhere. I don't care to waste my Sunday digging for it, but feel free to do so. But the word "play" can mean a whole lot and covers everything from a casual couple hours here and there with a group of friends all the way up to the diehard gotta be first cutting edge online 24x7 EQ-is-life player. Additionally there are all the different classes. So whether the person doing changes on a given class actually plays that class, and plays it within the scope of what's being changed, and has a deep understanding of it, well that probably doesn't happen too often if at all. But that doesn't mean they don't play.

[svenalo]

Lets address the issues and try to get us on the same page, or this next beta will be a nightmare, just like the last 2 have been.

In development cycles you cannot wait until beta, or even this close to beta, to be lobbying for big changes or improvements. The next expansion's design is likely already largely done and set, and development of things well underway. Beta is the time to fix things that are broke in that new code within the scope of that expansion. Technically if a problem outside that scope arises they aren't even supposed to be addressing it unless it was a result of those new changes.

No, as I said last beta and several times since it ended, if we want something that is a big change we have to be asking for it regularly over and over and try to get it in the design process as an expansion is first hitting concept, and then usher it through the rest of the way. Anything else is going to fail or be at best a bandaid.

Could something maybe get shoehorned in late? Yes. Should we ever stop asking for the things we need/want? No. But our expectations need to be properly set and realistic, and the reality is it is likely too late for any big new idea now that requires any kind of programming change to be in the next expansion. It's unfortunate, but that is just how development on any software project works.

[Piemastaj]

I am going to make multiple posts as I had things to do today so I missed this. To address Sven, They did point blank lie to us TWICE. We got told Rag servants would be made to twincast at some point in time once they switched the code up. This was said back in SoD, only to have it said in beta for HoT that this can not be done now. When more then half of the mages already knew it couldn't be done because SOE is lazy and refuses to work on the pet coding. Now we get told by Tuli, they just dont want to do it anymore. Regardless if they knew it or not back when they said it, we got lied to.

And Sven, we asked for most of the stuff we are asking for now in LAST beta, almost a year ago. The time doesn't matter. They still haven't fixed bugs with this expansion. We also asked for a lot of this stuff during UF beta. They don't care when we ask for it, or how we ask for it. Parses have, and will continue to get sent in to Devs. They still have to actually do something about it.