The 71+ Pets vs Conventional Wisdom

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Ok, I took a Ultima Online break for about 18 months and decided to look at Everquest again about 6 months back.

Now I have done as much reading on the 71+ pets as I can find, looked at all the charts etc.

I have asked in General chat and payed attention to what others say about the pets.

It is my opinion that there appears to be a lot of repeated Conventional Wisdom in regards to the 71+ pets, that just do not seem to hold up under any level of scrutiny.

Some statements,

"Use the Air pet as the others just plain suck and cant take a hit"
"Two box Air Pets as the stuns will keep either Air pet from taking any damage"
"The Fire pet doesn't do anything, totally worthless"
"The Earth pet is totally worthless except to keep runners in place and even then the Air Pet Stun is far superior at keeping the runner stunned"
"The Water pet doesn't out DPS the Air pet and can barely take 2 hits"

In short, it appears as though a goodly percentage of, if not all Mages see no point in the other 3 pets and explain there position with data that simply does not hold any water with even the simplest of test.

Two boxing two mages. Effectively my 81 Mage with level 81 Air Pet (Focused EM4) is PL'ing my mage on the other accounts Mage (currently 77 with EM1 Focus Buff).

Now I have a place in Katta were I can kill anywhere from 7 to 9 of the Servants. If I use the 76 Air Pet (EM1 focused) then I can do 6 per rotation. If I do the 77 Water Pet (Em1 focused) I can do 7 per rotation.

I have gone Brain Farting and on occasion sent the 77 Water pet in before the 81 Air pet. Well I have never seen that water pet at lower than 98% health and on occasion he will take aggro from the 81 Air pet, mostly when he is doing back to back or very close Backstabs of 1500+ damage. Regardless I have again never seen that water pet get lower than 98% health. And he is for certain taking more than a couple hits.

When I get the 78 Fire Pet I am going to give him his turn and I expect he is going to do quite well sitting back there with us mages as he casts his mana free nukes.

Now the above is just my observations and I do not pretend to be authoritative in my observations.

What I would like to see / discuss is just why is everyone selling the air pet as the only pet. Hopefully without the above justifications which just do not appear to be the case to me.

[Sillaen]

None of the mage pets are worthless.

People mainly use the air pet because it's the general all purpose pet. You can use it in raids, in groups and solo quite effectively, though not as efficiently as some of the others. This eliminates the need to constantly summon different pets.

In reality in today's EQ, the pets go like this.

Air - 3rd highest dps, 2nd most base HPs/AC, best at avoiding dmg, best aggro pet because of stun

Water - Highest dps pet, 3rd most base HPs/AC, best raid pet, tanks like a wet paper bag on current content

Fire - 2nd highest dps pet, least base HPs/AC, out of the box ready at higher levels, great for keeping dps going when rezzed, non existent tanking ability, generates good aggro (but not really a good thing here)

Earth - Lowest dps, most base HPs/AC, best at mitigating dmg, great pet for mega heavy hitters and mobs that run at low health, agrro generation sucks but the root does help sometimes

There are a lot of factors that go into determining tanking, like how heavy are you nuking and is the mob you're fighting stunnable.

The air pet and earth pet are comparable tanks if the air pet's stun will land. However earth has the best base AC and HPs and as such mitigates dmg better, so dmg spikes are less likely to kill it. Air specializes in avoiding dmg and generates an enormous amount of aggro, so the mob is less likely to look your way than say if you were using earth. In the grand scheme of things, air generally tanks better against single mobs, while earth is better for multiple mobs. It all depends on what your objective is.

All your pets have a place in your line up. Do let anyone fool you into thinking the air pet is the end all be all pet.


I use water on raid names because my job on a raid is generally straight dps.
I use air in groups, general soloing and trash clearing.
I use fire for trash clearing, pulling if I have to and for ongoing dps after a death.
I use earth when soloing something that might kill me if it breathes in my direction and for stopping runners.

Note:
When you add in AA's such as FBO, certain pets make overtake others in a particular department. For example, an air pet under FBO will more often than not out dps a fire pet. Just things to keep in mind, but the above outlined is generally the case.

[Bastler]

Because with all respect your observations in Katta are to 60% useless!

Katta elementals are melee weak mobs, like DSH bugs and such, and even a fire pet in meele modus focused with your type of foci would burn them a new one.

If you want to see differences in tanking, take a 81 focused air and water pet to UF and send them against mobs there, I am sure you will note a difference, and dont forget to keep a finger on your gate button.

[EnigmaMaitreya]

....
Water - Highest dps pet, 3rd most base HPs/AC, best raid pet, tanks like a wet paper bag on current content
...

I pretty much agree with everything else .....

Do not hear me as being argumentative or any such thing .....

Again going back to Katta and the Servents. I am pretty darn sure they are level 75/76 or pretty much an even con for the 76/77/78/78/80 pets.

Now I solo'd these with the 81 mage as I was going to 81. I used the 76 Air pet focused with EM1. I was required to a) cast more of the elemental nuke which has the heal component and heal on occasion, not always but lets say 1 out of 5 fights.

The level 77 mage, when I got the level 77 Water pet, I went ahead and did a round of 6 of them to see what the short count look see would be like. Well I never had to heal the water pet and only the first of the 6 had repoped vs 2 and almost 3 repop's for the Air pet.

I do not discount your assessment, rather I am saying that in as close an assessment as I could make and by no means a valid statistical evaluation, the Water Pet did in fact tank better than the Air Pet did.

One thing I have never seen on any of the new tables for the 60+ pets is a mention of the Water Pets 25% Health Regen bonus that the .... well at least 1 through 50 water pets had.

This could mean that the mage population has forgotten this heal regen bonus or it has been removed .... Any one care to make a statement on this?

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Because with all respect your observations in Katta are to 60% useless!
....

Please clarify this .....

Yes some of the Elementals do in fact say they are weak. And in fact they are weak ....

The Servants have around 65K hp's and are about 3 levels higher than the elemental's. Are you saying that these Servents are .. Vast Under Cons the same way the Elementals are?

And in the end, given the Servants are pretty much all the same level and on average the 76 Air Pet EM1 focus takes about 15% damage and the 77 Water Pet EM1 focus takes about 5% focus, then all things being equal, it would seem to indicate the Water Pet tanks better than the Air Pet with regards to DPS and to HPS Lost.

[Zacatac]

A couple years back, they created "weak" mobs. These mobs, while conning a certain level, were actually quite weak in terms of melee dps. There are a number of zones that contain these "weak" mobs, and Katta elementals happen to be an example of them. The HP on those is closer to 44k for the earth, and less for the others. I know this because I've killed them with a single AtA nuke.

A fright funnel on 7/2/2009 in 1sec

Total
--- DMG: 41603 (100%) @ 41603 dps (41603 sdps)

Zacatac
--- DMG: 41603 (100%) @ 41603 dps (41603 sdps)

Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
Produced by GamParse v1.0.2



So saying "water pet tanks just fine" isn't all the applicable to most everyones experience. The fact is, water (and fire) are horrible tanks under most circumstances.

All pets have uses though.

Fire = ranged dps pet. Also does the most dps "out of the box" (without buffs) and I always make one after being rezzzed back into a fight. Can also be good for a low AA mage to use.

Water = best dps for a high AA mage. Highly used on raids.

Air = most group friendly pet. Tanks well enough, has stuns. More hp than water or fire.

Earth = tanking pet for soloing in places you don't want runners. When used with a cleric merc, the extra HP of this pet makes it quite formidable and some even prefer it over Air.

[nako]

This could mean that the mage population has forgotten this heal regen bonus or it has been removed .... Any one care to make a statement on this?

Back in the day pets would regen like ~5hp/tick, water pet would regen maybe 1-2 more hp/tick (and it was immune to poison woot! die asps). This changed during luclin when pet foci became available, and a focused 59/60/epic pet would regen about 20hp/tick. Then PoP came along and 61+ pets would regen at about the same rate as a focused kunark pet, and a focused PoP pet would regen quite a bit more (maybe 50hp/tick). Somewhere along the line (before ooc changes i think?) pets began to regen significantly faster when they weren't being hit, and when ooc regen was introduced they started regening ~5% of their hp/tick when not being hit.

It's nearly impossible now to check what their 'in combat' regen is, but it isn't large enough to make a difference. Against current content that hits 2-3k on the low end, and 10k+ on the high end, 50hp/tick or 150hp/tick is exactly the same, useless.

The Servants have around 65K hp's and are about 3 levels higher than the elemental's. Are you saying that these Servents are .. Vast Under Cons the same way the Elementals are?

Been a while since I was last in katta but I'm assuming you're referring to these in which case, no, they're not weak. However, killing 6 with water pet is not even remotely enough data to say one pet could tank better than another. In addition to that, there are variables introduced by A): Golem slow, B): proc rate on Theft of Essence, and C): some of them are casters. The water pet does tank significantly worse than air pet; it has 15-20% less base hp/ac, not to mention it doesn't stun, nor can it block (one of the main reasons air pet tanks so well it because it blocks *and* parries, in addition to dodge and riposte).

I do not discount your assessment, rather I am saying that in as close an assessment as I could make and by no means a valid statistical evaluation, the Water Pet did in fact tank better than the Air Pet did.

We're not stopping you from using water pet, it wouldn't surprise me too much if it did fair about the same against 3 year old content simply due to the frontal backstabs for more dps, and the fact that those mobs can barely touch any of those pets. Just don't pull it out in higher end SoD or UF and expect it to tank anywhere near the effectiveness of air or earth.

As for the conventional wisdom, Sillaen summed it up spot on imo. I hardly ever use air anymore though, as I haven't solo'd in months. Pretty much always have water out and water in pocket, even air pet has become situational the odd time that I go grouping.

-nako/saryrn

[EnigmaMaitreya]

.....

The Servants have around 65K hp's and are about 3 levels higher than the elemental's. Are you saying that these Servents are .. Vast Under Cons the same way the Elementals are?

Been a while since I was last in katta but I'm assuming you're referring to these in which case, no, they're not weak....

-nako/saryrn

Yes those are the ones I am referring to they are easily in my kill range and being able to maintain fom so no down time, just a continuous cycle of killing.

I am pretty darn sure they are 65K+ Hp's as I have hit them for the 32K and they are around 50% health after.

*Shrug* I use the 81 Air Pet EM4 + the 77 Water Pet EM1, the mobs go down ... noticeably faster than using a pair or Airs.

I have always view the pets as situational with either the Air or Water as the best general purpose pet. Since the 61 Air pet, I have preferred the Air Pet in terms of the General Use pet. But as far as I can see in using the 72/76/81 they are not vastly superior to the others, but they do tend to be ... mostly better over all in most situations. But I do believe that a mixture of pets may produce a better kph, if one has the ability to do that and I do with being able to 2box 2 mages.

As for the heal proc rate, eh, it could ... maybe account for the disparity in needing to heal the pets, but I tend to watch for those things as I know without it I need to heal the Air pet. I do not "believe" the water pet had any more or less occurrences than the Air pet did.

But I am rather anxious to pull the 78 Fire Pet up and see how that combination does. If it does pretty good nuke wise, I may need to load up the current level malo and make sure it sticks to the mob.

[Merlaina]

But I am rather anxious to pull the 78 Fire Pet up and see how that combination does. If it does pretty good nuke wise, I may need to load up the current level malo and make sure it sticks to the mob.

Two things:

1 - Get the malo AA yesterday. It has a large resist modifier and saves you a spell slot (though doesn't provide the bonus to magic damage, which you'd be using on these guys).

2 - Fire pet does some pretty nice DPS, and it's a great pet when you're feeling lazy. Water does more DPS from behind (and maybe even from the front, I'm not sure) but you have to worry about positioning, time it takes the pet to travel to the mob, etc. With fire pet you just summon it up and it's ready to go. No need to buff it. As soon as you tell it to kill it just sits there and flings spells. I was using mine just yesterday grouping with some guildies and it's much more relaxed than water. Only really big downside for me is frenzied burnout does smurf all for it.

Just don't send the fire pet in too soon. As someone mentioned above it does generate a good chunk of hate and may pull aggro off of other pets.

[Rathic]

*Shrug* I use the 81 Air Pet EM4 + the 77 Water Pet EM1, the mobs go down ... noticeably faster than using a pair or Airs.

That is exactly in line with what everyone said: Water is higher DPS than Air