Someone did a parse comparing SoD and HoT pets. Using em8 and burnout IX and unspecified weapons but I suspect the HoT weapons:
81 air pet dps: 1040
86 air pet dps: 1175
It looks small but realize it's a 13% increase in dps and dmg. So, the total dmg:
81 air pet dmg: 1.24 mil
86 air pet dmg: 1.42 mil
Not saying it should be higher, which it should, considerably, but wanted to fairly put things in perspective.
pets
Re: pets
I can safely say, that, everything in HoT is an increase; pets, pet focuses, nukes, buffs are all better than UF and previous spells. Our problem is that, most other classes just got much bigger increases than mages got. All level 86-90 rank 1 spells are supposed to be better than their corresponding 81-85 rank 3 spells, and if this is not true, it is probably a bug that is yet to be fixed. One caveat: due to focus decay, you might be occasionally be better off using an old spell over a newer version.
edit: SORRY, plz disregard, I was incorrect on the above info.
edit: SORRY, plz disregard, I was incorrect on the above info.
Last edited by dorfillya on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: pets
Well, I don't quite care that other classes got buffed, just that none of our issues were fixed. If that's because some arsehat whined about a tiny number of mages moloing in Convorteum, then I'm really pissed.
Soloing power should never factor into raid balance. No one ever mentions raid-geared hybrids like paladins and SKs soloing better than rogues, monks, etc. can ever hope to do. So why the heck do *we* get penalized for this? It's not even like we got a huge boost in soloing power in HoT so this isn't even a legitimate point!
I think we just got struck by the "flavor of the month" tag, to be honest. In EQ the way balance is done, is you gotta suck for five years, and then devs will come back and buff you for an expansion or two, and then you get to slowly decline and stagnate for another five years, rinse and repeat. Seriously they never even fixed the basic problems with mage raid DPS, they just gave us ONE major pet buff back in SOF and then everyone thought mages were fine and clueless devs just jumped on the bandwagon.
Oh well. See you guys in another five years I guess.
If EQ even lasts that long.
Soloing power should never factor into raid balance. No one ever mentions raid-geared hybrids like paladins and SKs soloing better than rogues, monks, etc. can ever hope to do. So why the heck do *we* get penalized for this? It's not even like we got a huge boost in soloing power in HoT so this isn't even a legitimate point!
I think we just got struck by the "flavor of the month" tag, to be honest. In EQ the way balance is done, is you gotta suck for five years, and then devs will come back and buff you for an expansion or two, and then you get to slowly decline and stagnate for another five years, rinse and repeat. Seriously they never even fixed the basic problems with mage raid DPS, they just gave us ONE major pet buff back in SOF and then everyone thought mages were fine and clueless devs just jumped on the bandwagon.
Oh well. See you guys in another five years I guess.
If EQ even lasts that long.
Re: pets
One would think that, however historically several RK3's from the immediate prior expansion/level increase exceed the RK1's and sometimes the RK2's of the new expansion.dorfillya wrote:I can safely say, that, everything in HoT is an increase; pets, pet focuses, nukes, buffs are all better than UF and previous spells. Our problem is that, most other classes just got much bigger increases than mages got. All level 86-90 rank 1 spells are supposed to be better than their corresponding 81-85 rank 3 spells, and if this is not true, it is probably a bug that is yet to be fixed. One caveat: due to focus decay, you might be occasionally be better off using an old spell over a newer version.
Checking Alla's (which may not have the right data yet of course), Earthen Stance RK3 beats RK1 of the HoT upgrade. At least this time the RK2 beats the RK3 of the prior expansion where in previous times it did not.
RK3 of the SOD malo line is better than the RK1 HOT upgrade, and the same as the RK2 of the HOT upgrade in resists but still better in the spell damage modifier.
Shield of the Void RK3 is better than Shield of Dreams RK1.
Similar differences between BO8 and BO9.
And I could go on...
This is one of the things we asked get corrected before beta, and comments on it were made in beta, and it fell on deaf ears.
Re: pets
Just a matter of fact- The way pet focuses work is simple. It grants your pet a shoulder item when summoned. I have seen the EM 3 item years ago, so don't remember the stats off hand. If you wanna see for yourself you have to bug your pet, you have to get charmed loose control of pet and then kill pet, loot corpse (this does not always work). Back to the point, the item granted gives mod 2 effects to your pet. I do not remember it having any other stat bonuses, that includes no HP/ AC. These mods do go over the stat cap, but pets are not effected by normal stat c aps thus allowing higher and higher mod 2 bonuses to effect the pet.
Now as for why the EMs seem to not effect a pet as much is simple, the mod 2 bonus is the same for an 81 and 86 air pet, granting the same bonuses. The only difference is the pets base mods that the EM granted item boosts. So not being based on % of base stats it has a lessoning boost when compared to a pet of the next teir. That is why pet focuses have always been improved, so that the old focus doesn't give the max advantages. This is just another form of making us slowly build a better pet, and thus making us seem weaker in the begining.
Now as for why the EMs seem to not effect a pet as much is simple, the mod 2 bonus is the same for an 81 and 86 air pet, granting the same bonuses. The only difference is the pets base mods that the EM granted item boosts. So not being based on % of base stats it has a lessoning boost when compared to a pet of the next teir. That is why pet focuses have always been improved, so that the old focus doesn't give the max advantages. This is just another form of making us slowly build a better pet, and thus making us seem weaker in the begining.
May the elements guide and protect you.
Re: pets
I am a raider. I state that so there is no confution about where this comes from.
Mages pets are scary, when buffed, and used propperly with the AAs they tank nearly as good as actual tanking classes. They can actually do better than some tanks do to them having more buffs opened up to them. I can boost pets tanking then DA, all the while burning named, and poof there goes another named on the mage belt. Very few other classes can do that, and even then most need special ways. AKA wizzies need room to kite or a mob that can act as a tank. We only need a lil area to get no adds, nothing fancy. We are spose to be able to solo average mobs, yet as a raider, I get access to items that allow me to goto Convo and be that prick who molo's nameds. We are a very powerful class, and for that we pay a bit of a price. Some of you don't remember the days where mages were hated by most all group classes. We were dangerous to be around, our pets had little to no control, would agro a whole zone, poof everytime we invis'd. We have slowly gained more control, power, and ability. I have yet to gain a new pet (excluding fire), since the 50's, that didn't let me reach to a level of awesomeness.
Also during the last days of Beta, while testing pet tuning, I was tanking Teir 4 named mobs that con red with a 86 EM 13 air pet. Did this with a 90 cleric, 90 T5 DPS Caster merc, 90 T1 healer merc and I was a 90 raid geared mage. Not only could I tank the named mobs but did this with adds at times. WE killed nearly all named mobs in Morell's Castle this way, though often loosing the DPS caster merc to agro. This will be the topic of many peoples complaints, so be prepaired.
While people are complaining about us loosing ground, look at how many new mages there are. Look at how much we make people whine about what we can do. Look at how we are now highly desired in groups. And the next time you go solo, look around and notice you are doing the same thing that the group next to you is doing, just a lil slower (oh yeah and we now have more mana then we need). Yeah as a raider, I have accessed higher gear, which has increased my abilities, causing people to whine that I, as a mage, am so uber they feel like a lesser class. That so pays for being a lil lower on parses on raids.
In the Raid game we need to relook at how we are veiwing ourselves. Yeah we are DPS, just not high on the food chain, but we have other jobs. Mage air pets are what most the guilds I have ever been in want, cause hey, who else stuns like an air pet. If you are a raid mage who doesn't have clerics sending tells for mod rods, your mages are not doing thier jobs. Then the DS's and procs that help the tank build hate, yes only small amounts but every bit helps when events eat tanks and they need to rebuild agro while the raid DPS has been on the list for a while. The role of a mage is much more than just DPS, and it is selfish of a mage to think otherwise.
Raid mages also need to understand that the Dev'shave to place balance in the fact that the more powerful a mage is as a raider, how much more powerful it makes a mage in the solo/group game. Like I said as a raider I can tank named mobs in Convo, which is unfair to non raid mages who have to hear about how Uber mages are and they struggle. Be glad that you have the abilities you do, make yourself more useful to your guilds if you are a raider and understand that as the game advances, mages are going to keep being looked at as an unfairly powerful class, cause we will have mages raid geared that blow the Bell curve.
I for one am happy to be a mage and love that people are so jealous of what I can do.
Long live mages!
Mages pets are scary, when buffed, and used propperly with the AAs they tank nearly as good as actual tanking classes. They can actually do better than some tanks do to them having more buffs opened up to them. I can boost pets tanking then DA, all the while burning named, and poof there goes another named on the mage belt. Very few other classes can do that, and even then most need special ways. AKA wizzies need room to kite or a mob that can act as a tank. We only need a lil area to get no adds, nothing fancy. We are spose to be able to solo average mobs, yet as a raider, I get access to items that allow me to goto Convo and be that prick who molo's nameds. We are a very powerful class, and for that we pay a bit of a price. Some of you don't remember the days where mages were hated by most all group classes. We were dangerous to be around, our pets had little to no control, would agro a whole zone, poof everytime we invis'd. We have slowly gained more control, power, and ability. I have yet to gain a new pet (excluding fire), since the 50's, that didn't let me reach to a level of awesomeness.
Also during the last days of Beta, while testing pet tuning, I was tanking Teir 4 named mobs that con red with a 86 EM 13 air pet. Did this with a 90 cleric, 90 T5 DPS Caster merc, 90 T1 healer merc and I was a 90 raid geared mage. Not only could I tank the named mobs but did this with adds at times. WE killed nearly all named mobs in Morell's Castle this way, though often loosing the DPS caster merc to agro. This will be the topic of many peoples complaints, so be prepaired.
While people are complaining about us loosing ground, look at how many new mages there are. Look at how much we make people whine about what we can do. Look at how we are now highly desired in groups. And the next time you go solo, look around and notice you are doing the same thing that the group next to you is doing, just a lil slower (oh yeah and we now have more mana then we need). Yeah as a raider, I have accessed higher gear, which has increased my abilities, causing people to whine that I, as a mage, am so uber they feel like a lesser class. That so pays for being a lil lower on parses on raids.
In the Raid game we need to relook at how we are veiwing ourselves. Yeah we are DPS, just not high on the food chain, but we have other jobs. Mage air pets are what most the guilds I have ever been in want, cause hey, who else stuns like an air pet. If you are a raid mage who doesn't have clerics sending tells for mod rods, your mages are not doing thier jobs. Then the DS's and procs that help the tank build hate, yes only small amounts but every bit helps when events eat tanks and they need to rebuild agro while the raid DPS has been on the list for a while. The role of a mage is much more than just DPS, and it is selfish of a mage to think otherwise.
Raid mages also need to understand that the Dev'shave to place balance in the fact that the more powerful a mage is as a raider, how much more powerful it makes a mage in the solo/group game. Like I said as a raider I can tank named mobs in Convo, which is unfair to non raid mages who have to hear about how Uber mages are and they struggle. Be glad that you have the abilities you do, make yourself more useful to your guilds if you are a raider and understand that as the game advances, mages are going to keep being looked at as an unfairly powerful class, cause we will have mages raid geared that blow the Bell curve.
I for one am happy to be a mage and love that people are so jealous of what I can do.
Long live mages!
May the elements guide and protect you.
Re: pets
I agree that raid-geared mages are the ones who make the non-raiders whine, but it's BS. Why don't they ever whine at the raid-geared tanks who laugh at how easy the group content is and the raid-geared hybrid DPS who tank Convorteum better than any raid-geared mage pet? Raid-geared tanks put out more DPS than almost all group-geared DPS. Why isn't there any complaints about that, but there is complaints about mage (a DPS class) tanking better than group-geared tanks?
It remains the case that mage DPS is way behind the curve in raids and that this shouldn't have anything to do with moloing. It might not matter much since guilds these days worry more about attendance and old player retention than class min/max, but if this were a newer game this smurf would never fly.
It remains the case that mage DPS is way behind the curve in raids and that this shouldn't have anything to do with moloing. It might not matter much since guilds these days worry more about attendance and old player retention than class min/max, but if this were a newer game this smurf would never fly.
Re: pets
Funny stuff, are you really a mage? You certainly dont raid thats clear.In the Raid game we need to relook at how we are veiwing ourselves. Yeah we are DPS, just not high on the food chain, but we have other jobs. Mage air pets are what most the guilds I have ever been in want, cause hey, who else stuns like an air pet. If you are a raid mage who doesn't have clerics sending tells for mod rods, your mages are not doing thier jobs. Then the DS's and procs that help the tank build hate, yes only small amounts but every bit helps when events eat tanks and they need to rebuild agro while the raid DPS has been on the list for a while. The role of a mage is much more than just DPS, and it is selfish of a mage to think otherwise.
Go troll somewhere else.
Sashnia of AB
Re: pets
Sorry, I stand corrected, I thought I read that those problems were fixed, then by checking back and forth between beta and regular servers, I see that at least some 81-85 rk 3 spells are better that 86-90 rk 1 spellssvenalo wrote:One would think that, however historically several RK3's from the immediate prior expansion/level increase exceed the RK1's and sometimes the RK2's of the new expansion.dorfillya wrote:I can safely say, that, everything in HoT is an increase; pets, pet focuses, nukes, buffs are all better than UF and previous spells. Our problem is that, most other classes just got much bigger increases than mages got. All level 86-90 rank 1 spells are supposed to be better than their corresponding 81-85 rank 3 spells, and if this is not true, it is probably a bug that is yet to be fixed. One caveat: due to focus decay, you might be occasionally be better off using an old spell over a newer version.
Checking Alla's (which may not have the right data yet of course), Earthen Stance RK3 beats RK1 of the HoT upgrade. At least this time the RK2 beats the RK3 of the prior expansion where in previous times it did not.
RK3 of the SOD malo line is better than the RK1 HOT upgrade, and the same as the RK2 of the HOT upgrade in resists but still better in the spell damage modifier.
Shield of the Void RK3 is better than Shield of Dreams RK1.
Similar differences between BO8 and BO9.
And I could go on...
This is one of the things we asked get corrected before beta, and comments on it were made in beta, and it fell on deaf ears.
Re: pets
It does a whole lot more than that. As a matter of fact, it didn't even summon a cloak (not shoulder) until SoF era.Failcon wrote:Just a matter of fact- The way pet focuses work is simple. It grants your pet a shoulder item when summoned.
The only way a raid geared magepet is going to do as well as a raid geared tank is with DA. An EM8 air pet, max aa, doesn't even come close to the tanking ability of a convo group geared tank with max defensives and not half-assed augs. This is from experience, as I progressed through to convo with a group geared SK (I had EM3 to EM4 at the time, EM7&8 after we got convo flagged and he still tanked way better). An EM5 (group geared) air pet would be even lower down the pecking order. Slack-ass tanks call out our pets because slack-ass mages do better than them. It's slightly easier to not suck with a magepet.Failcon wrote:Mages pets are scary, when buffed, and used propperly with the AAs they tank nearly as good as actual tanking classes.
We aren't even in the food chain. Last burn parse (70sec) was a wizzy at 52k, followed by a smurfton more wizzies and a few melee's. I have no idea where I was, but burned everything and *maybe* did 1/3 the wizzy's dps. Perhaps we should go back to writing stupid things on the ground with modrods. We need something raid specific to help us out and not OP group mages. I saw one good idea somewhere (sorry can't remember where) that was... a new massive Jolt/Shock that ramps up based on PC's in agrolist. Pet's really aren't viable any more (even raiding we rarely have 10 pets on agro list, unless mob is cornered, which almost never happens any more), and would still make for silliness in a group setting provided host was up.Failcon wrote:In the Raid game we need to relook at how we are veiwing ourselves. Yeah we are DPS, just not high on the food chain, but we have other jobs.
I can't remember the last time I was asked to do anything other than dps. Oh wait, there is one event where I sit there and chain earth pets at a mob. Sure I make rods/invis stones/whatever. I stopped DS'ing cause that's the first thing that gets clicked off. Pyroshroud on a select few warriors that don't hate it, but other than that... I often get the feeling that the rest of the raid just wished I would reroll a wiz.Failcon wrote:The role of a mage is much more than just DPS, and it is selfish of a mage to think otherwise.
I wasn't in Beta, but I suppose the new AA rods should help our raid utility a bit... but you only need 1 Mage for those (hell, one alt parked in GH). Other than that I just see us continuing on down the road of mediocrity. On the bright side, most of us will be accustomed to that though (2001-2008 ring any bells?).
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