Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

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Failcon
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Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Failcon »

Ok, I have been a jerk about how we Mages are ok ( in a way). I have only lightly touched on our raid dps issues, that was because I feel we have to separate the issue from others. We have to understand that we are not going to get the dps boost we are wanting if it is going to keep pushing our group / solo abilities higher. There is already a large amount of criticism about our soloing power. Please do not flame about how this is only cause of raid gear, it doesn't matter the reason, they only care about the fact that it is happening, not about it only being a select few.

So we need to come up with ideas that can effect how mages function during raids without it placing a large boost to the group / solo content.

The Devs attempted this with the "of many" line. This spell has a prereq on it that we find difficult to get in groups and even some raiders in pet light guilds. This spell thus is limited as a non raid spell, sometimes it's even limited on raids. This is an example of how the Devs think we can be boosted fairly on raids.

To that end I challenge other Mages to come up with ideas that are fairly limited in group / solo content but can help in raids. Please try to not come up with things outside our class aka no FD. Use descretion, trying to make something overpowered "cause they will nerf it" doesn't help, cause it will just be overlooked. Maturity is the key folks, ideas with usefulness that stay in our class are what have the greatest chances.

This is how we raiders can best improve our need and function in our guilds. Think of what you guild needs from you, utility is not a bad thing, nor is DPS. Any ideas can be useful, don't let others discourage you from suggesting something.
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Failcon
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Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Failcon »

Ok an idea I have had was to have an AA that works in ways like the "of many" spell line. This could boost spell dmg and pet dmg, maybe an aura type effect with a short duration. The way it works is that the AA factors pets on the hate list and they the effect of a certain level is produced. The thurmaturge pet line has a multi level effect (showing it can be coded), so rather than random it could be based on pets. The effect th unbalanced at it produces I would think would be best if group based only leaving the desire for multiple mages in a guild.

Now as to the exact nature of the effect, I would think something that produced an "Elemental Intensifacation" with say 5 - 7 ranks of effect, I would like to either see 4 versions of this with elemental appropriate effects eg: earth - giving a group dmg mittigation and AC (we have always been mild utility), air - a melée enhancement either a stun effect or strikethru, water - a spell defense like a short term reflect or immunity for 30 - 45 sec, fire - a stackable fire bonus not a modifier but an actual effect that enhances any spell cast even magic.

The other version would be a single AA that produced an effect from all 4 elements at once. This would either be more powerful with a longer refresh or have lesser effects than if it was singularly focused.
Last edited by Failcon on Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Voragath
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Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Voragath »

I differ on the staying in the class ability. Some things from other classes can help us. Also, devs are more apt to make stuff already in existence and modify for another class than make an entirely new ability. One huge factor is this whole idea of "but it doesn't fit mage lore" (aka Tulisin syndrome) is what's causing us to split up camps. It's one thing if it's way outside of lore (giving us melee abilities, for example) than if it's just something we haven't had but another has had for a long time (spear, harvest, canni, pet heals, fade, memblur, etc).

And saying we can't boost power because of group is too straining too. I guess you haven't watched SK's molo in convo? A ranger and rogue duoing in convo? How about druids and necros kiting convo? What about Rangers HS'ing their way to 30aa's a lesson? SK's swarming LB's for the same effect? Every raid ability overpowers the group game and you can't avoid it. Trying to act like it doesn't is plain ignorance. Look how well wizards smash the group game because of their raid powered dps.

We aren't overpowered in the group game because raiders don't care about the group game because all their upgrades are in raids. Not to mention, few mages, if any, are doing all the smurf people spew on the live forums. It's all perception and no one has provided any real proof. We should be pushing people to prove all these inane claims they are making on live and that'll fix half our problem.

As to abilities, we have our dps split, not evenly, but split. Ideas will need to hit both us and pet or have a counterpart so that one will affect us and another will affect the pet. An example would be like having TC buff the pet to increase his dmg by 2x for the next 16s or whatever or they could have given us a 5.5 min timer aa that allows us to double our pets dps. That or the boost in only ONE area needs to be huge to compensate. Finally, our main hurt is burst. If something is gonna be dead in 5 minutes, we won't show up on the parse.
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Failcon
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Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Failcon »

Voragath you have some valid points, some cross class stuff would not be bad so long as it doesn't just massively jump camp. I also agree alot of classes can do wonders, especially when raid geared. The issue is people point out us more than most, it doesn't matter if it is true. The court of public opinion does not look at facts. Also classes like SKs cry how they can only do that once every hour and a half (I think that is what was said the other night), and that is just one place where they can then point out we can sustain ours (like I said this need not be true, people just have to think it). I am not trying to say you are wrong, just we are fighting up hill and need to use some strategy to get what we are looking for.
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Gnomeland
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Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Gnomeland »

Why in the world this is hard is beyond me. You want to fix mage raid DPS without touching mage solo power? All you have to do is make the following AA ability:

Let Our Powers Combine: You merge with your (permanent) pet. For the next 5 minutes, you cannot summon or control a (permanent) pet of any kind. In its place, you gain a self & swarm pet-only aura called "Essence Infusion" that grants you 100% twin-casting and +100% overhaste. Recast 30 minutes.

"Oh, but we want our pets to be involved in the raid D: D: D:"

Then make an AA ability like this:

Dimensional Burnout: Your pet enters into Phase Space and can no longer hold aggro or be attacked. It gains triple damage due to being able to strike directly at the target's essence core, but its movement speed is slowed by 50% because traveling in Phase Space is taxing. Lasts 5 minutes. Recast 30 minutes.

It took me ten seconds to think these up. Surely the devs can do better - if they wanted to. Bottom line, though, is that they don't.
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Failcon
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Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Failcon »

Gnomeland - I really like the first idea. TC lasting for 5 min would never be allowed, but maybe a larger version of mana recourse? Overhaste would be ok but maybe a dmg boost also, we are giving up primary pet dmg for 5 min. Also an illusion component added, would be cool to be a gargoyle or some kind of djinn.

As for your other idea, I like it, but it is an anytime power, well excluding solo. Would be wonderful in groups.
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Danille
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Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Danille »

Part one:

The first step is to look at who the raid DPS classes are

The second step is to stop listening to non DPS classes whine about how good DPS classes can DPS

The thrid step is to make sure that the DPS classes contribute equally to raid DPS

Once that is done

Part two:

The fourth step is to define who the soloing classes are.

The fifth step is to stop listening to non-soloing classes whine about how good we can solo.

The sixth step is to make sure that the soloing classes are all equal contributers to the solo playestyle.
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Failcon
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Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Failcon »

Danille - That would be ideal, only issue is what people consider soloing, and circumstance. Druids, Necros, Wizzys and Shammys all can solo, so long as they can kite/root, but when that can't happen they are out of luck. Then there is the tactic of using other mobs on opposing faction, to tank for you, old Wizzy trick. Though haven't seen that option in HoT. The reason I mention those examples are, gear really doesn't factor greatly into those types of soloing, only if they meet criteria.

On the other hand a mage can solo any mob he can single pull, according to his gear. What I mean by that is, there are top end mages that can molo (don't tell me you are not gonna use your merc if you can) nearly any named mob they want. Do understand, I state this in reason, some mobs have special abilities that can hamper any fight, like charm mobs and those that summon adds. Some mobs just can't be solo'd. What my point is though, is that mages tend to suffer in one way and then in the same way excel. On the low end, if a mage does not earn at least a minimum pet focus, some dmg focuses and the like, that mage is hard pressed to do any current content. On the other hand, if a Mage puts in time and effort, gets top end gear and focuses, that mage is hampered very lil by content and only worries about single pulls or agro control for multiple mobs of lower levels.

Yes other classes get the big gear bonus, usually it is the melees or tanks though that this seems as obvious. One of the reasons alot of guilds elected to crush caster weapons, in order to boost the melees. Gear tends to enhance the melees most and is more of a sustaining boost to casters (yes I know, foci boost dmg and such, but a caster who is not tanking can just cast a lil more to make up for it). The reason gear helps Mages so much more than other casters is part of our class is melee, those major foci eg. pet focus and servant bonuses, cause us to be a much better soloist, but we also need the dmg focus and such cause we are often riding the line of killing the mobs as fast as we can before they one up our pet, cause we all know, a lucky mob quad can destroy the best pet. We ride the line in all ways, thus making our push for boosts even harder.
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Voragath
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Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Voragath »

While we make new abilities, we need to call these people out with their outrageous claims. Also, we need to be pointing out what certain other classes can do as a result of their power. This will help keep everything in perspective.

Like was pointed out, who cares if an RoI mage is soloing a convo mob...what's the gain? Seriously. And they'll do it what, once every 15, 30 mins? And still, they have to be rather lucky to do it. I've heard of both chanters and necro's solo'ing convo nameds. I bet an SK or a Ranger could do it too if they thought hard about it and had some cojones.

Gnomeland, abilities aren't just a simple coding. LOL Our fire pet critting with FBO was an AA earlier in beta and it just flat out wouldn't work. Our new 3 ranks of summon companion, while useful, is technically broken because there was no way for them to make it work the way they wanted it to. It's fine to throw out ideas, but saying things like, "I don't understand why they don't do x, it's so simple" will get us nowhere.

I really think we need a super FBO that's 3-5 times as powerful as current to pair with our Twincast ability. And some way that we can boost our RS pet. I was thinking, since they had the skull from cauldron buff you with a pet focus, we could get an aa that will let us summon a special RS for some serious voodoo damage on the raid mobs. It would buff us like the skull does so the next RS comes out as a special beast.
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Failcon
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Re: Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

Post by Failcon »

Voragath wrote:I really think we need a super FBO that's 3-5 times as powerful as current to pair with our Twincast ability. And some way that we can boost our RS pet. I was thinking, since they had the skull from cauldron buff you with a pet focus, we could get an aa that will let us summon a special RS for some serious voodoo damage on the raid mobs. It would buff us like the skull does so the next RS comes out as a special beast.
Maybe a RS style pet, that lasts for 10? ticks, would need some kind of scaled effect, making it more "raid" based. Remember, they still look at us as powerful out of raid. I could see this as being part of Gnomeland's "Let Our Powers Combine" thought. A seriously buffed up RS, and getting the spell casting boost on the other side?
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