Naggy/Vox Item Cheatsheet

[Redius]

Doesn't really matter anymore; Absor came out tonight and posted that the gear will be nerfed.

[Sillaen]

Doesn't really matter anymore; Absor came out tonight and posted that the gear will be nerfed.

Yup, it's being nerfed.

Here's one thing I can never understand. Why do casual groupers feel the need to be closer to raiders in gear? If casuals got any closer, why would there be any need for raiding? I've tested a lot of scenarios from all classes and every time, group gear amounts to about 65 - 70% of raid gear. That's about 2/3s as good as a raider. How close does it have to be before everyone is satisfied. Like Zac, I'm a casual player, part-time raider and I think being about 70% of a hard-core end game raider is sufficient, but that's just me.

[Darkenr]

Doesn't really matter anymore; Absor came out tonight and posted that the gear will be nerfed.

Yup, it's being nerfed.

Here's one thing I can never understand. Why do casual groupers feel the need to be closer to raiders in gear? If casuals got any closer, why would there be any need for raiding? I've tested a lot of scenarios from all classes and every time, group gear amounts to about 65 - 70% of raid gear. That's about 2/3s as good as a raider. How close does it have to be before everyone is satisfied. Like Zac, I'm a casual player, part-time raider and I think being about 70% of a hard-core end game raider is sufficient, but that's just me.

Aye, that's the problem. I could personally see if groupers want the gap to be closed a little bit more (say up to 80% of raiders), then they would need to have progression, and difficulty that emulates the same difficulty that's involved with putting together and keeping 54 people organized in raiding.

Lets compare...

Hardcore Raiders: 3-4 months to get into tower after release
Hardcore Groupers:2-3 months to start getting end-game group gear

Mid tier/casual Raiders: Just now maybe keying/and breaking into tower like my guild.
Mid tier/casual groupers: A lot are in a good spattering of T5 gear, and most done with Void E progression for T5 gear

Just because raiders had it easy this expansion, doesn't mean groupers didn't also have it easy, so that argument that raiders had easy-mode doesn't really apply when groupers had the same with their content.

It should take most of an expansion's life to get to that end-game for the hardcores. SoD had it easy all around, grouping was easy, raiding was pretty easy. I see a lot of groupers saying that "OMG raiding guilds had it SOOO easy blah blah blah" but what they fail to also mention is that grouping is at an all time easy mode as well. In fact, in essence if you really look at it, gearing up in grouping was FAAAR easier than the raiding in SoD because at least in SoD we still had a very strict flagging process to complete to access the end-game gear in raiding, whereas groupers could go to OBF/CoD for "end game group gear" with no flagging at all for non-visibles, and they only needed progression (to void E) to make visibles, but still got the full benefit of non visibles when ALL raiders were required to go through not only the Void E group progression, but also the raid progression to key for tower, and it still required guilds to gear up in korafax for a while with keying to break into tower.

[Merlaina]

I think it's really that everyone wants better gear. Do I WANT high end raid gear? Smurf yeah I do! Do I think I SHOULD have it? No, not in the slightest. I'm just getting back into the game, and I was greatly saddened to find that they were pretty much just handing out elaborate silk at the door, which replaced years worth of upgrades in a single day and cost me less than 10K combined. However I also saw the need for it, since there's no way I could have done current group content with +100 hp/mana gear.

From a grouper standpoint the only reason I'd want group gear to be closer to raid gear is so I could occasionally do raid content if the opportunity presented itself. Even if you have a fairly straightforward raid comprised of competent groupers, it's smurf hard to beat with just group gear. And then if you don't have a guild/regular group then getting good group gear is also hard, though that's the consequences of your choice to not join an active grouping guild.

That said I'd kill for even high end group gear right now

[Kendrick_Prexus]

It sure does suck that an alternate gear path for both raiders and groupers was hosed because raiders got their panties in a wad. I see raiders moan and complain about how hard they worked to get keyed/flagged and then spend time farming tower.
How is this raid gear on easy mode? Spending time doing 25 missions is easy mode?

Compare the gear
Ordained Forcestrike Silk Sleeves
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=105076" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
Icy Sleeves
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=54780" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The raid version has
1045 hps, 1145 mana and fire focus of 90%?
The MM version has
906 hps, 904 mana and fire focus of 80%?

the raid gear is still on top. Would someone please show me these mythical items that made raid gear obsolete????

I was smurf excited to finally get a chance to upgrade my mainhand 1hb to something meaningful since silk caster classes got hosed for mainhand upgrades in SoD. Now your bitching and moaning got those upgrades nerfed...thanks alot you uber smurf. Heaven forbid some lowely grouper should have gear that is 80% of yours huh???

[Darkenr]

I think it's really that everyone wants better gear. Do I WANT high end raid gear? Smurf yeah I do! Do I think I SHOULD have it? No, not in the slightest. I'm just getting back into the game, and I was greatly saddened to find that they were pretty much just handing out elaborate silk at the door, which replaced years worth of upgrades in a single day and cost me less than 10K combined. However I also saw the need for it, since there's no way I could have done current group content with +100 hp/mana gear.

From a grouper standpoint the only reason I'd want group gear to be closer to raid gear is so I could occasionally do raid content if the opportunity presented itself. Even if you have a fairly straightforward raid comprised of competent groupers, it's smurf hard to beat with just group gear. And then if you don't have a guild/regular group then getting good group gear is also hard, though that's the consequences of your choice to not join an active grouping guild.

That said I'd kill for even high end group gear right now

And actually since group gear has been brought within 70% of raid gear group geared people can actually do some base raiding now to get some raid gear if they really wanted to. I don't know of a mit-tier raiding guild out there that won't consider letting them into their guild that's in group gear as long as they meet the level 85 requirement, and a minimum AA requirement. The current group gear is high enough now to allow people the opportunity to get into a casual/mid-tier raiding guild now, so that's no longer an issue.

That being said, for the grouper guilds that have enough members to put together a raid, can actually raid if they really wanted to to get some raid gear without even having to flag/key at all really. The SoD T1 raids Queen, and BB are actually VERY capable of being beat by people in group gear, and it yields gear at crystallos level which is a great little shot in the arm for a family guild that doesn't raid outside of just for the fun of it every once in a while.

[Redius]

It sure does suck that an alternate gear path for both raiders and groupers was hosed because raiders got their panties in a wad. I see raiders moan and complain about how hard they worked to get keyed/flagged and then spend time farming tower.
How is this raid gear on easy mode? Spending time doing 25 missions is easy mode?

Cause doing 25 missions IS easy mode; your current gear/flags/etc has nothing to do with being able to attain raid quality gear. You don't even lose EXP on deaths in MM's, and that's a massive difference vs. how many times death occurs, even on farm status in tower. When we started SoD and were still learning the raids; dying 5-10 times a night was common and tanks died 2 or 3 times that amount. All the mm's were was easy repetition. That, in my opinion, is NOT a valid reason to getting raid gear. You want raid gear? Raid.

[Kendrick_Prexus]

Cause doing 25 missions IS easy mode; your current gear/flags/etc has nothing to do with being able to attain raid quality gear. You don't even lose EXP on deaths in MM's, and that's a massive difference vs. how many times death occurs, even on farm status in tower. When we started SoD and were still learning the raids; dying 5-10 times a night was common and tanks died 2 or 3 times that amount. All the mm's were was easy repetition. That, in my opinion, is NOT a valid reason to getting raid gear. You want raid gear? Raid.

Nice of you to ignore the first part of my post asking for item comparisons?
Where is this mythical Tower lvl gear from the MM?
25 missions at an hour a piece with lockout timers is easy mode?

I spent 3 hours the other night attempting the naggy raid with 28 other people. We wipe the first time because some idiot agroed before the raid was set. We then try and recoup the raid before repops only to lose because a monk quit the task because of the late hour. If anyone quits the task the task shuts down in 2 mins. 3 hours...no loot...and no brews for anyone. Wow that sounds suspiciously like a night of your raid experience.

[Darkenr]

It sure does suck that an alternate gear path for both raiders and groupers was hosed because raiders got their panties in a wad. I see raiders moan and complain about how hard they worked to get keyed/flagged and then spend time farming tower.
How is this raid gear on easy mode? Spending time doing 25 missions is easy mode?

Compare the gear
Ordained Forcestrike Silk Sleeves
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=105076" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
Icy Sleeves
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=54780" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The raid version has
1045 hps, 1145 mana and fire focus of 90%?
The MM version has
906 hps, 904 mana and fire focus of 80%?

the raid gear is still on top. Would someone please show me these mythical items that made raid gear obsolete????

I was smurf excited to finally get a chance to upgrade my mainhand 1hb to something meaningful since silk caster classes got hosed for mainhand upgrades in SoD. Now your bitching and moaning got those upgrades nerfed...thanks alot you uber smurf. Heaven forbid some lowely grouper should have gear that is 80% of yours huh???

hehe, I don't consider myself a hardcore raider at all. I didn't have my panties in a bunch, my only complaint was what Absor said confirmed, is that the gear is better than the best underfoot would have had to offer at end game group gear, and it would defeat the purpose of progressing through the expansion for a some people, and then all the sudden we have an expansion where a large percentage of people that geared up in the MMs quit because they have nothing else to progress toward for very potentially multiple expansions to come.

If you actually followed my previous posts, considering I was the one that created the topic, and READ what I said at the topic creation, and my post after that. I never once said that they should take away the raid stats of it, and was hoping that if they toned it down, they would tone it down to crystallos/FoS RAID level quality hehe. I think you're the one that has the greatest problem. You're just as bad as the raiders that are lashing out, except in the opposite direction. I see you lashing out at me, but have I lashed out at you, or groupers, or any of that? Nope. I was actually saying that IF it got toned down it should still have raid stats, if at a lower quality. I've never once complained that groupers don't deserve some sort of path of being able to get gear at or close to a raid level without the requirement to actually raid constantly.

All I was saying was that I think that if something like that were introduced, they should make it a long flagging process just like guilds need to go through to flag for themselves, except the only difference would be that the keying/flagging process could be done with single groups instead of full raids.

But you're entitled to your opinion, and I won't argue that you're wrong, and there may be an MMO that comes out in the future that will actually introduce a way that actually works to have group and raid gear be equivelant, but still make it appealing enough that guilds still want to actually raid yet. You don't need to see and agree with my opinion, or the devs for that matter, just like how I don't have to agree with your opinion either. But is the lashing out really necessary lol? The devs are the ones that ultimately make the decisions about the game, and even IF there wasn't such an outcry, I'm inclined to think that the devs probably would have been toning stuff down on their own even without the sperging out on both sides lol.

Sorry that I've angered you so much, it wasn't my intention.

[Sillaen]

I'm not against groupers having an alternate path to some decent gear, but you do realize you were comparing an item from easy repetitive tasks to the absolute end of all end raid gear for that particular slot; and even so it's 78% mana, 87% HPs and 89% of the focus of the raid gear. Add to that, the fact that the purity level is exactly the same between the 2 and that gear easily goes up another few %. That is quite a bit too much.

I think the 70% ratio of group gear is quite adequate for group gear.


Edit: hmmm, wonder why my sig stopped working.