Calling for pet nerfs

Anything relating to the magical arts (pets, spells, AAs).
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Tweelis
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Calling for pet nerfs

Post by Tweelis »

So I haven't played Tweelis in awhile but rather have been doing other things. There seems to be an air around various boards (mainly SOE and evilgamer) to bring our pets down several notches.

The last thing I want to see happen is getting our pets nerfed back to where they were during kunark/velious. I still remember having my pet get one rounded in plane of fear and being forced to solo mobs that barely gave xp because anything else would get us killed.

Here are the two threads concerning this that I'm aware of:
http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9097
https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/inde ... on.210068/

Is this a case of "lies, dam lies and statistics" or are end game mage pets really that much stronger than tanks? Is anybody running parses to show where we don't need a nerf? If nothing else will anybody point me in the right direction so I can /testcopy and do some parsing? I've been on Bristlebane playing a level 87 heroic mage with my wife and kids but if need be Tweelis can make an appearance on the test server; I just need to know what zone and mobs would work best. If anybody else is collecting the information though please post it on the sony boards so we don't get nerfed into oblivion.
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Jesup
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Re: Calling for pet nerfs

Post by Jesup »

From the parses being posted in several SOE forums, I find it highly unlikely we avoid yet another pet nerf. I have had a good fourteen years, think it is time to find a new hobby.
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deadman1204
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Re: Calling for pet nerfs

Post by deadman1204 »

They are lies.

All the "statistics" are parses of knights and warriors using no abilities or spells compared to earth pets.

Sony gauges tanks abilities assuming they are using their abilities. So its equivalent to parsing themselves naked compared to earth pets.
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Falore
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Re: Calling for pet nerfs

Post by Falore »

deadman1204 wrote:They are lies.

All the "statistics" are parses of knights and warriors using no abilities or spells compared to earth pets.

Sony gauges tanks abilities assuming they are using their abilities. So its equivalent to parsing themselves naked compared to earth pets.

I rarely post here but the problem we are facing as a class.. as an archetype are that knights and warriors are VERY organized when it comes to things like this. As a community they tend to lack the brains to actually work together and boost their own classes with abilities they need, and instead choose the route of attacking other classes (this was actually told to me in fact by a member of their community) But mages generally are far more disorganized and more loner based these days. This is a problem many communities face, but community sites like evilgamer have stayed very strong.

Charts and numbers can be used to prove almost anything if you have an agenda, it's just a matter of cutting out the charts that dont backup your claims and only post the charts that favor their claims.
Mage pets DO have some benefits over tanks in specific circumstances but a lot of these tanks posting in the thread literally do not even truly play EQ, many of them dont even care enough to put in the time and energy it takes to replace augs from 20 levels ago yet they somehow have the free time to attack mages.

I also especially like the fact that they fail to mention how pets get wrecked by quite a few situations that stops them from being the best tanks:

-Damage shields destroy pets
-Certain mobs and group conquests have anti pet mechanics - this is notable in chapterhouse mission 2 where the shade added pretty much destroy pets if you try to use a pet on them
-Chelsith mission 2 strongly favors a real tank for positioning, pets and mercs even if well controlled will cause things to get messed up
-Small cramped corridors / dungeons are not ideal for pet tanks, nor can pet tanks be used AT ALL if you intend to group with the following classes: warrior, shadowknight, paladin, berserker, rogue, monk.
If you use a pet tank with beastlords, rangers,and non boxed bards you are severely limiting what those players are capable of

You pretty much can only pet tank with these classes present: mage, necro, wizard, enchanter, druid, shaman, cleric. Grats we can tank mobs with 7 of the 16 classes in EQ present HURRAY!

With the exception of the plane of war content is so easy that pretty much any class can tank it, so the differences between classes are mostly just a matter of nitpicking. Warriors can currently tank EVERYTHING in EQ universally in both the raid and group game, they are also a highly desired raid class. Mages are an expendable class in the raid game (yes we rock I know but we are very much replaceable on a raid roster unlike warriors and clerics) I also feel it is worth noting that even in a difficult zone like the plane of war I have successfully tanked named mobs such as kijarl on my group geared ranger for roughly 3 minutes without dying before. Warriors tend to like to scapegoat the mage class every chance they see an opening be cause quite frankly many of them are simply number crunching simpletons and incapable of coming up with new and unique ideas to boost their class without bringing other classes down in the process.

I feel bad for their community, There are a few warriors i do truly respect, but their community is very disappointing to me and full a a few very sad individuals.


If pets get nerfed into oblivion because of a vocal minority that exists on the SOE live forums (most eq players do not post on forums) I will almost certainly not be renewing my 5 accounts. I love eq, I do not wish to quit EQ, I will never rage quit eq over nerfs (never did in the past) BUT if my ability to participate in group content is permanently removed or nerfed to the point that I cannot function the same way anymore I will have no choice but to quit.

I realize I am just one person, no one special, and a few people in the tank community might laugh at me saying i'd quit but to put it in perspective, i have played this game everyday for years and dedicated more hours of my life than a sane person ever should. If someone as diehard about me would quit eq over the inability to fulfill a class function that has existed for years, I imagine quite a few more casual players would as well. As I said I dont wish to quit though, so a drastic nerf to that extent would be more of a forced retirement for me.
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Enkel
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Re: Calling for pet nerfs

Post by Enkel »

Falore wrote:
deadman1204 wrote: I also especially like the fact that they fail to mention how pets get wrecked by quite a few situations that stops them from being the best tanks:
The whole thread is about warriors and brogett laughing about mages defending their pets, while the warriors and brogett continue to only look at passive mitigation. While we might not like each other, Falos, your above post is very well written and correct. I recently logged on my raid warrior and hit full discs, everything, and my warrior absolutely crapped on my pet. They're using statistics, pretending to be absolute. Anyone that has taken stats in college can tell you that we manipulate statistics for our own advantage, and that is what they're doing. They continually post "their facts" but refuse, at least I have not seen one, to post any with a Warrior using the abilities. They then use the guise of "a baseline". It's a very lopsided topic, which piestro would have closed, and kept closed, awhile back.
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Everwes
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Re: Calling for pet nerfs

Post by Everwes »

Because they complain does not necessarily mean that mages will be nerfed. Sony is aware I would guess that many, many, boxers uses mage pets to tank for exp and that if they make that unviable that they will lose paying customers. Mages are arguably the most popular class in the game and without that, and with improvements to warriors, it will leave the game in an economic hardship. I started at the beginning and gave up my mage when kunark came out because mages were so limited. I come back years later and gave up on my monk for my mage. So, hopefully they won't listen to players but to dollars.
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Enkel
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Re: Calling for pet nerfs

Post by Enkel »

Pets were already nerfed. Currently I'm doing parsing on raid warriors in disc, sks, paladins, rangers, and monks, and I find it funny that my parses are greatly, in some instances, varying than some of the parses posted. Currently, the whole thread screams "Nerf pets", and the mods are allowing those posts to stay up. It seems only when nerf calls are made to mages and wizards that they're allowed to stay.

I'm on the fence on exactly how I feel about the situation, and am doing quite a bit of parsing atm, but there are several things that come to mind:

1) can a warrior effectively do their job in eq currently?
answer: yes.

Pets, in general, are not greatly affecting them in anyway. Currently it's pure jealousy.

2) Everyone, including CRT's, are going off one individuals posts. If they're correct or not (data can be manipulated) I won't 100% know until i do more parsing. Currently, my parses with a raid warrior in full disc is much different than his parses, so I'll do more parsing to see why there is such a variance, and check avoidance, mitigation, etc...

3) How the hell are the mods/ Roshen allowing this to stay open when it's purely a pet nerf thread? It started out under the guise of "baseline", but now every warrior post in that thread is about "nerf that pet." At this rate the devs will either nerf our pets, or stagnate them in the next release. While warriors, and CRT members that we all know whom I am talking about, try to laugh at anyone that says anything to the contrary, it has happened already.

There are more points I could address, but currently I am extremely tired. What I need to parse next it SK mitigation and the increase in their "tank-ability" with their innate healing. On my Sk I can pull 15 mobs at a time, with full discs and everything going, and tank them. I cannot do that with my earth pet, save hitting DA (like anyone can). This is by no means a "nerf" sk point, my point is pure mitigation isn't the only numeric value that determines how a PC tanks. "Skill" is not usually something individuals want as a baseline, so I will avoid, or try to the best I can, using that as a possible variable in what I look into (though, skill no matter great or small, is inclusive when someone hits several buttons).

Pretty sure this is just a rant with me thinking off the top of my head while running parses, I've been up far too long.
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Jesup
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Re: Calling for pet nerfs

Post by Jesup »

I started a thread in general discussion of this site dealing with posts being removed my mod 19. Was wondering if any of you have had your posts removed from this outcry for a nerf. The thread was once locked and Daegun was suspended, then the suspension was removed as was the locked status of that thread, I fear what the devs will do to my most sacred and beloved class in EQ. I know my leaving won't have any real affect on SOE. But I will find something else to do with my time if the constant cries in the past two years of nerf pets and mages continues. Of course we can solo, of course our pets and other pet classes can tank when there is no available tank with the assist of 7 of 13 classes. But I have never been in a group of skilled players where a real tank didn't net more experience and fun. We are limited, and fluffy was our way to negate the lack of tanks for groups, as they tend to run with a very select few.
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Felinya
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Re: Calling for pet nerfs

Post by Felinya »

I haven't run any parses but I practically retired my war(load him in when I find a mechanism better suits for a melee....hardly ever now) for my mage. I'm not complaining nor am I advocating. As a war, it's rather depressing that you need to get all of the best gear to stand up to a trash/exp mob when a mage comes in and easily has their pet take it down with less heals. Again this is the good ole eye ball test but I'm pretty good at determining that after playing a war for 12 years. The mage needs an earing and the war needs tons of gear to stand up to them. Now of course the war has tools to improve mitigation but so does the pet. When SOE nerfed the No Time to Bleed disc...that really hurt the wars. At this point in time wars are one of the worst off classes in EQ. Hence why I play a mage :) I don't recall the last time I logged my war in if that tells you anything.
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deadman1204
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Re: Calling for pet nerfs

Post by deadman1204 »

I'm concerned that the only reason they are letting the thread run is because the devs agree with it. They never let nerf calls go like this.
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