The nerf thread closed

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Enkel
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The nerf thread closed

Post by Enkel »

Just a heads up Roshen, it seems, has finally closed (if it stays that way) the thread calling for pet nefs, but there is another thread "Pet vs Tank" that is still open, and will most likely snowball the way the last one has (posts have already been removed from that one). Though the thread is closed, misinformation still lingers. The issue I see with that thread is things were removed that protected (or attempted) our class, and now when someone views that, for the time being, they will still have the biased misinformation. I spent 2 days writing a post/ letter to SoE, and wanted that posted within that thread. But, now, it's a useless waste of time, but at least the thread is locked. I assume we might see these starting up again, since it's, I have been told by Piestro, against the rules to start up a thread that is the same as a closed thread. Many threads calling for pet nerfs have been closed in the past, yet this one was allowed to stay open.

If you care about the state of the class, and this happens again, do some parsing, understand the part that is mitigation, and activated abilities. Doesn't seem like anything I, or Pie, posts get's to stick for long, but if more people post and send SoE concerns than maybe things can be handled quicker. For now, at least it's closed.

Edit: Again, thank you for everyone that sent in their concerns and helped get this thread closed (though I have a feeling they didn't care 1 bit about our concerns and just closed it when they got tired of complaints).
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Sirene
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Sirene »

The pet mitigation threads are a great example of confirmation bias. No one is going to change their mind - it's just back and forth ad nauseum, which seems completely pointless to allow to go on for 50 pages (and yet it did). It surprised me to see the thread unlocked (multiple times), a 2nd thread started, and not locked either. The EQ forums are different now with Piestro gone; or maybe they've always been this way, and I didn't catch on until now.

I tried to provide some parses as evidence in favor of mages (non tank mercs, sk pet), as they mitigate well also, but no one in their right mind would use them to tank. The response seemed to be that this was simply more of a reason that warriors need more mitigation.

Any argument made in favor of pets is dismissed and parses are demanded, but conveniently not providable for abstract things like AE aggro, etc. Someone even claimed pets tank in over 90% of content. And yet I can go days/weeks without seeing a group that uses a pet to tank. Where are all these elite groups, denying PC tanks and melee classes their rightful place in every group? It's as though tanks are commonly found wandering around, homeless, unable to progress or do anything in EQ without the mercy of "The Pet Classes."

I would like to see data on how common pet tanking truly is, but even if it were brought up I'm sure it would be dismissed like every other argument. The whole thing makes me wonder about bothering with the EQ forum at all, and shows how pointless it is to even have discussions with PhD EverQuest players who already know everything.
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Falore
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Falore »

The damage was already done, he re-opened it and kept it open for so long that IF there is a nerf it is because of how he handled the thread. He let it get out of hand and he let sheeple gang up on pet classes and scream for nerfs.

If there is a major nerf it wont be for several more months but let's never forget this thread and if such a nerf gets implemented hit the warrior class as hard as we can. Mages aren't in a bad place at the moment, but neither are warriors (which is why it is so dickish of them to be going after us)

Zerkers, Wizards, warriors, mages are probably 4 of the better off classes overall atm. If warrior agenda wins in the next few months then RIP warriors say goodbye to your nice toys.
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Falore
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Falore »

Edit I'm deleting most of my original post I made here about an hour and toning it down some.

THe gist is this. Warriors are getting some absolutely fantastic aa's in tier 2 cotf (beta warrior aa's were leaked for a few days about a week ago) I'm more than happy to see them get that but if their agenda leads to mega pet nerfs then no I am not cool with them being made even more powerful. Warriors are not in a bad position like they used to be, they along with mages are probably 2 of the 4 best overall classes in EQ at the moment.

It's extremely frustrating that the tank community outnumbers pet classes on the forums and this is the third time in a year that they have pushed hard for pet nerfs against us (past attempts were successfu) ENOUGH IS ENOUGH just leave our class in peace and enjoy the fact that warriors are a MUST HAVE raid class, treated like rockstars in callout loot guilds, AND are able to tank 100 percent of all content in the game (mage pets cannot do this) Even if pets have decent mitigation there are so many other factors to tanking and combat, so many limitations and additional factors that pets are NOT the superior choice to player warriors or player knights.

Just because a few people in the tank community present their data as if they are trying to be civil and selfless that is not necessarily the case, the agenda is painfully clear and anyone that can read between the lines knows EXACTLY what is happening here.. and *THAT* is why several mages (myself included) are getting extremely frustrated and unwilling to tolerate their BS.
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Bedavir
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Bedavir »

Falos,

Thank you for editing out your personal attacks against my intelligence. If it makes you feel any better (and it probably won't) I was also banned from EQLive for 72 hours at the time that the thread was first inappropriately locked. While I do understand your frustration with this information being made public, I don't think you'll find much success with your "vow of retribution" if any changes to NPC mitigation follow the release of this information to the general public.

For any who are curious, you will be able to find all relevant parses and testing in the following thread. They have been archived for 'historical reference' in a medium where I don't expect it will be ever inadvertently deleted an over-zealous moderator:

http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9099

For what it's worth, the junior moderator (SoE Mod-20) who initially (and inappropriately) locked the thread and banned me has a mage Icon beside his name. I imagine his class preference and his inappropriate initial moderation are what ultimately permitted this thread to last as long as it did. Kudos to Roshen for opening it up and allowing the discussion to play out. I am sad that we are now no longer welcome to discuss this now without new information to share - but I'm pretty sure all relevant information was tested.

As for any moderator activity (deleted posts, warnings, suspensions et al) that any of this community may have experienced. No reports came from me. I suspect if your post was deleted, it was because some part of it (or most of it) was either inflammatory in nature, contained personal attacks, or was void of any real productive input. I do wish that more of you had contributed actual data vs anecdotal opinions during this discussion. Unfortunately, the inability to productively contribute to the discussion in a mature and non-inflammatory manner ultimately did you no favors in the discussion. If you DO happen to come up with measurable data, please feel free to engage the community in further discussion.

My only goal is game balance. I consider myself a rational person. I am human, and therefore not perfect. If you find glaring problems with my testing or have any new information that is relevant to the discussion, please by all means share it with me. I'd be happy to discuss/debate it with you like a civilized adult.

-Peace
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deadman1204
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by deadman1204 »

The worst thing is - warriors should absolutely NOT get any buffs.
The problem is npc dps is too high.
They complain that they cannot survive several rounds anymore without heal assistance. What does that mean for non-tanks?

The wider issue that NO ONE can survive getting agro without assistance (and for many casters, only then with raid gear) is being completely ignored.
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Jesup
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Jesup »

Here is what I posted in their new nerf pet thread-
Here we are again, with another hijack of a thread that could divulge real information. Instead we are back to mitigation. There will be a few that have heard this before, mitigation does not = tanking. Maintain aggro would mean you are tanking, can we all agree? Why aren't the raid tanks I frequent with flopping in raids, and why are pets never saving the day in those raids? If the picture that was trying to be drawn in threads that are already closed were true, every raid would be set up without melee and the entire dynamic of eq would have already changed. We are a community of min/maxers when it come to raids. If the argument of pets enters this again, I will squash it, because pets can't tank like PC toons, stop post this misinformation. People have parsed and shown pets mitigate better, ok you win eq. Tanking is maintaining aggro, and having a group or raid kill a mob. Because if you want to argue things, there are classes that root/rot much more efficiently solo than other classes solo things. Is this class envy? For some I will say it is because they can't get over a single integer to an equation. Apples and oranges, all day, quit bringing a broken argument up in every thread you feel you can slip it into. The only thing you are going to prove is that you wished you could face roll your keyboard for the win. Do you really want EQ to be like that game you didn't leave it for? I apologize for those who don't understand of what I am speaking of, but there are people here that believe their "empirical data" had something to do with what tanking and how other classes are balanced has anything to do with an afk parse thread that was shut down. Don't continue down that road please, for my mage is not the only raid toon I play. Tanks are not broken, do you really want easy mode now and broken content later. If you wish to play the easy MMO's, which this is getting close too, please do. Should tanks get some love for AC returns, absolutely, but in no way large returns or it will wreak the next set of content.
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Jesup
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Jesup »

Just shut down another thread in which the usually suspects were in. Withteeth is my moniker, and I will watch for all the witch chases on our class. I raid as both a mage and a tank, so I know we are fine and mitigation never equals tanking. I am hoping my arguments mean more than the argument that an afk parse could ever show what tanking means or how our pet should be. I actually think it will have some pull as I have been the end post on one and the entire reason another newer thread was ruined and shut down. I only want our class to exist as we do, if that changes, my role will change and I don't want that. I love my main being a mage, I only play tank when raid needs it. And I made our point by stating that all major raid guilds min/max and if pet tanking was still viable, all major raid guilds would be set up that way. That last post was removed and that current mage nerf thread in SOE's tank forum was shut down. The Mod said that my post was proof for the thread being shut down, even though he removed it, lol. Here it is my friends- Then is it pet tank and spank on any current raid content? You made your assertion in such a way that it was the norm. I pointed out it might be old content and you got offended. Wanna know why? Because no guild uses pet tanks ever on raids, in any circumstance on current content ever. Just silly you brought it up like it was viable, thanks, but can we please stay in reality. That is what I want to avoid, the entire thought that something which doens't exist does. Get it, understand we don't do those things? My SK tanks current fine, my mage pet is NEVER in the tank line up, nor would it save the raid when my SK would. Where are we in total disagreement?
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Jesup
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Jesup »

Daegun opened another nerf thread, I posted this which has not been editied - Daegun, I must ask, at what point do you not realize that your post was closed and continuing in this nature is against SOE regulations? If you doubt what I am telling you, please read for yourself. The devs will consider your well thought out empirical data of afk parsing and how pet's and PC stack up. I will once again tell you that never are PC tanks simply flopping in the group or raid environment. You are reaching for a nerf, and at best you might get it and at worst you might get yourself banned. Please be careful of what you contend to do, as there are rules. I only say this because I don;t wish someone who is a part of the eq community to erase themselves from it by ignorance. You are still seeking a nerf, stop now, simply give up your renegade ways and fall into suit. The devs have your afk parses, they have closed your threads over and and over again. Are you trying to tell us they won't see your now 5 closed threads. There will come a point that you will be sat out if you continue this way. Your data, which makes no sense, when would anyone be afk without any resources simply let things beat on them? You might get mitigation, you might bring pet nerfs, but your run is done, please desist, don't continue. I could simply say that you are fishing heavily for a nerf now, as you pop up in any thread, and that thread is shut down, just stop your ideas, as they are being looked at, Trying to further propagate it only makes you look worse in the sense of the SOE regulations. Will we you chase this until you are banned?
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Jesup
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Re: The nerf thread closed

Post by Jesup »

Haha shut down the newest thread in two posts.
New parse for constructive discussion.... This thread is non-constructive. By the same guy, I am happy I can shut them down in minutes now =D Look it up, told dude he should be banned for doing this over and over. Minutes later after I went through rules, LOCKED. I was right, looking for nerfs afterward will get you banned =D
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