new stuff

[Piemastaj]

The post would have been much better without all the BS added in. It is a shame that so much flaming distorts the truth.

One statement is debunked by these two recent posts:

Get to Know a Dev Introduces: Associate Game Designer Julie “Ellie” Burness
Get to Know a Dev: Assistant Lead Programmer Jennifer “JChan” Chan Questions Answered

What Sav said as a whole is correct. This expansion will make or break raiding mages. If all the raiders quit who the smurf will stick up for the grouping mages to ensure they have good tools? I for one won't I will change classes or quit. If you haven't noticed Dani, the raiding mages (and yes you are one, so the high-horse routine of always sticking up for the grouper gets old) are the main ones who speak with the devs on issues that relate to our class. If raiders all leave the class, then you can almost guarentee the group mages will suffer greatly and see less and less power as the expansions continue to come.

If you really are calling Sav's lack of knowledge of what devs play the game (most ppl don't even know this) flaming BS that is laughable. If not, please show us with facts (like so many mages do not know how to do) what statements Sav made that were BS. The grant ideas were great imho from HoT. Did we absolutely need those? No we didn't it is more of a WANT not a NEED. This is a huge issue I see from the mage class as a whole. People can't tell what is a WANT and what is a NEED. Currently right now we NEED burst DPS for the raiders. Most mages know this by now, especially if you join serverwide.

Like Sav said tho, if you group mages wanna keep pushing for little BS want stuff then you will see a huge exodus this expansion of the high-end mages. Burst helps out both ends of the game, little things like iceflame getting a heal or grant summon things primarily help the group mage out.

[Savil]

I can give two examples off the top of my head about a dev lying to the customer base. One, when elidroth told mages that he would fix mod rods to be castable in combat before launch during beta, they weren't fixed until I yelled at him in an unrelated thread last month about it and shamed him. Two, elidroth again, release bard AA's that were completely broken and reported as such in beta, he told bards they would be fixed before or just after (1st patch) release. They were broken for over a year. This too was told thrown in his face during the same thread, at which point they were fixed.

Tell me you think a mgr somehow told him not to fix it? There are many more examples BTW. Any idiot knows that no mgr told him not to fix those, he just didn't do it, prob cause hes lazy and didn't care. Maybe he was too busy working on that 1/2 baked defensive changes that any moron could look at for 5 minutes and see were undoable. Shame it took him a 100+ page thread to come to the same place.

Sad fact, the current dev team is freaking clueless. I don't see how anybody could look at the state the game is in currently and think they are anything else, or that they actually play the game. I'm not talking about "wow, I logged in and killed a few mobs with class X!", granted I'm shocked they do that much.

I can't believe how willing some of you guys believe the devs when they have broken so much of what they have promised us. BTW, you are completely wrong about it being too late to get ideas into beta. When the devs are freaking asking some of us for ideas, and saying they have no idea what to give us to fix us, I don't see how you can even say that. Wire and I pushed entire new AA's into beta right in the middle of the freaking beta during UF. So you are completely and totally off base here.

Savil

[Malleria]

Jchan is a coder and has no real input in the games direction. Ellie has been working on EQ all of 1 expansion (and the latest play experience she mentions is killing quarm, lol?) on quests, missions and raids - nothing to do with class balance or class power.

Not sure how those equate to killer examples.

[Baramos]

There sure is a lot of exclamations and anger around here.

There are already enough onerous issues between "Raid" and "Group" Mages, and that is in the SoE ether and is before we started sniping at each other.

Hearing "I'm gonna quit if it doesn't get better," ad infinitum is getting very old. A snarky "moderator" screeching daily is getting old.

Look, if you're going to quit, just quit and stop whining. How many times have you said, now, "If it doesn't get better I'm gonna quit !"

The situation is not a sky-is-falling scenario. "MASS EXODUS", "MAKE OR BREAK" - brother give me a break from the hysteria. And the worst part is pointing fingers and the implicit blame of our current situation on a particular segment of our class.

Your posts are peppered with derision and contempt aimed at your fellow Mages, whether in his ability to use facts, or how he perceives his class role and forward movement. And, btw, where is this cabal of Evil Group Mages who are asking for the "BS little stuff". You just make things worse when you post that divisive junk.

You called earlier, with your mod status, to keep it civil. How about taking that advice yourself, pal? Go back and re-read what you wrote and try and get some perspective. And please spare the "YOU FAIL" retorts this time.

You really believe that without "the raiding Mages" there will be no one left to stick up for us? We are going to be fine - there are good Mages who always show up in beta who will continue to speak for us.

Danille is right about inciting drama, and correctly called "BS".

Your attitude stinks.

With your displays of hypocrisy and anger I fully expect you to remove this post.

Bara

[Savil]

There sure is a lot of exclamations and anger around here.

There are already enough onerous issues between "Raid" and "Group" Mages, and that is in the SoE ether and is before we started sniping at each other.

Hearing "I'm gonna quit if it doesn't get better," ad infinitum is getting very old. A snarky "moderator" screeching daily is getting old.

Look, if you're going to quit, just quit and stop whining. How many times have you said, now, "If it doesn't get better I'm gonna quit !"

The situation is not a sky-is-falling scenario. "MASS EXODUS", "MAKE OR BREAK" - brother give me a break from the hysteria. And the worst part is pointing fingers and the implicit blame of our current situation on a particular segment of our class.

Your posts are peppered with derision and contempt aimed at your fellow Mages, whether in his ability to use facts, or how he perceives his class role and forward movement. And, btw, where is this cabal of Evil Group Mages who are asking for the "BS little stuff". You just make things worse when you post that divisive junk.

You called earlier, with your mod status, to keep it civil. How about taking that advice yourself, pal? Go back and re-read what you wrote and try and get some perspective. And please spare the "YOU FAIL" retorts this time.

You really believe that without "the raiding Mages" there will be no one left to stick up for us? We are going to be fine - there are good Mages who always show up in beta who will continue to speak for us.

Danille is right about inciting drama, and correctly called "BS".

Your attitude stinks.

With your displays of hypocrisy and anger I fully expect you to remove this post.

Bara

You are confusing me and pie here I think. "You Fail" is very clear here, as I said *I* would leave EQ if the next beta didn't fix the raid level class issues. So your "Look, if you're going to quit, just quit and stop whining." is just that ... fail.

I fail to see how any raiding mage could see the current game as anything but the sky is falling ... if your not a raiding mage .. then clearly this post wasn't for you .. and you should, let me put this kindly, let the adults talk and shutup. Its not like mages haven't been here in the past .. and a LOT of mages did leave.

"And, btw, where is this cabal of Evil Group Mages who are asking for the "BS little stuff" "

Wow, you don't pay much atten to what is going on around you. If beta has shown us anything its that *1* person can completely screw up a class. Lets have a few examples, kozvar telling the devs foci were far to common, and thus screwing us all in UF / HoT. Tuli plays a part is the disaster that HoT beta was as well, how much I'm sure we will never know. So it doesn't take a "cabal" of "evil mages", it just takes on stupid one.

I didn't call out more mages in my post because I didn't want to point out how stupid I felt their ideas were, tbh, the mages in question know who they are and if they want it known publicly they can feel free to post up and confess their sin of being clueless.

The next part of your post is clearly aimed at pie, so I'll let him defend it. But yes, I think if the raiding mages are gone the grouping game would be hurt in the long run. If you can't understand how that would play out your a fool. How do you think we got all the upgrades to RS pet? Raiders. How do you think we got aegis AA? Raiders. Almost every single thing Wire and I asked for in UF beta was added, besides Wires idea of a pet version of DVA. We just couldn't sell elidroth on it. Am I saying the groupers never come up with a good idea? No, they do, but raiders add far more than you seem to give them credit for.

If your happy with farming BS and camping a few named with friends and doing some quests ... GREAT, it might take a few years before you even notice the raiders are gone, but you would at some point.

You can call the thread drama as you wish, but its funny how you fail to see the drama you yourself have added to this very thread all the while blasting the rest. I guess in the end .. if you want to bury your head in the sand, I'll be glad to hand you the shovel, but don't expect me to join you.

Savil

[Piemastaj]

Just like in this thread before Dani cleaned it up, please show me my hypocrisy. You failed to do so then and YOU FAIL to do so now. Stick with the facts and not some garbage your trying to spew.

Please again show me where I am shreaking, and I can be whatever I like to be even if it is 'snarky' it is my right as an American citizen. I have never once said I am going to quit, so if you were directing that at me your wrong unless you can find me an exact quote I said.

Your a hypocrit your pointing fingers at me and Sav who are trying to rectify the situation when you yourself said you should not do so.

Its not junk, its truthful by the spells we got. HoT brought about the grant line which is far more useful in the group game then in the raid game. Raiders actually tried to get more useful things on the grant line but we had no luck.

I never said there would be no one to help groupers out, I said there will be less mages to do so because there are a lot more raiders that talk with devs then groupers. I have plenty of mages who ask me weekly what should I do with this or how do I do that ect. Who is going to be there to help out? Tarn you dont even join SW that I can tell, any1 who talks in SW is a raiding mage. So my statement is true with that, a lot of mages depend on SW to help them out, if all of us raiders are gone no one will be there to do it.
Didn't you already retire once, and are back again? You made a thread on eqlive last year iirc saying oh I am retiring and yada yada, what made you come back and decide to start a vendetta?

I didnt call to keep it civil in this thread, I called to keep it civil in the use of words with other words thread, check your facts. What does my mod status have anything to do with my posts? I chose to be a mod to help clean up the boards not to have to act like the pope. If it pisses you off so much you become a mod, I had to delete tons of spammers from this board for months and ban people.

This isn't drama, its called having an arguement and a justified one on both sides. Boards like this are meant to argue over topics and such, not everyone will agree wtih you everytime and sometimes they will.

My attitude is fine, your the only one with a problem with it. And if you dont like it, quit reading what I am saying, I'm not going away so deal with it.

I am not angry at all nor was I when I made this post. I would never delete a post like yours that is childish, and it is better left on the boards so people can see reading comprehension at its worst.

[Tacoma2586]

even tho this post isnt helping atm how bout you either post ideas,etc for what mages need through dps and pet focuses etc like pie/savil/ben wanted or dont post Bara. Your posts are obviously not helping a smurf bit so.

[svenalo]

I don't work for SOE, but I am a developer and have seen both sides of the process, everything from design to coding to planning and architecture to now the management side of things. And I can tell you flat out management definitely will stop people from working on something if other business priorities dictate - that's just how it works. So Eli could very well have had the best intentions to fix the rods, the devs could very well have the best intentions to make RS pets twincastable way back when, but when push comes to shove their intentions don't mean squat when the priorities are set by management to get XYZ goal done. Call that lying if you want...however it isn't lying unless flat out they knew on the day they made a statement that it would never ever be done.

[Piemastaj]

I just told you they did lmao. Mages knew they would never let Rag pets be twincasted, it would be too much work to re-do the entire pet coding system. They lied, plain and simple. Even admitted they couldn't do it during beta, which caused a lot of mages to get pissed in the spell thread.

Saying you will do something and then you never do that thing is lying. They even admitted later they couldn't do it, because of coding then Tuli told us they didn't want to do it because they didn't want to mess with pet code.

[Calebe]

Savil you are right to a point. Raiding mages need help I agree, and it can't be pet based as the dev said, so I again agree those asking for it now are not helping. What needs to happen is we forget group verses raid mages and instead focus on burst DPS and yes it will help the grouping mage but less so as not as good a focus effect.

In other words look at necro's and wizards and realize the MOST important thing we all need to learn and learn now. Any upgrade they get to their DPS burst, or substained goes to the grouping wizard and necro also and they don't care, don't mention it, and never ever bring it up in the conversation. So why do mages? Becase honestly some raiding mages are elitists and want their piece of the pie so to speak and think the grouping mage are fine. Lokk to Koz for being number one at that game.

That ends now if we want to fix this issue. We ask for burst DPS, we need it in the raiding game. Groupers get it by default, wonderful we push for it. If ANYONE mentions but the grouping mage, we reply in a single voice, and how does burst DPS given to a necro or a wizard not benefit the grouping one? Oh wait it does. How does the BL new dps spell help only the raiding BL? Oh it helps the grouper as well. Does mes only help on raids? Nope the grouper has it and all the benefits of the raiding Enchanter minus rank 3 spells (the same as a necro, wizard and mage). everyone getting it yet? It is not US verses US any longer (raiders vs: groupers). It is the mage class united on a single purpose burst DPS now (this expansion and the next one).

That is it. End of story. No more of us (raiders) verses them (groupers). We are one class. As a class we lack burst DPS. It needs fixed, and yes it helps the raiding mage and the grouping mage. WIN/WIN.

As for Bara's post, Bara has been here in the trenches when the outlook on mages was way bleaker then it is now. From Kunark thru and up to PoP years mages stagnated. We were rod whores on raids (if you allowed yourself to be). We were CoH bots in VexThal and even told do not DPS in ToV as you need to call the raid so keep your faction. So don't bust on Bara, because Bara is right the mage class won't fold as some raidng mages will not quit if our needs are not met. It will hurt us but we won't be hurting as badly as in SoV and SoL days. we lost not only raiding mages back then but grouping mages as well. It was a dark time for the class.

Yes I was through it all, and didn't raid a lot, and when I did I nuked, and to hell with faction, and I only dropped rods once, and that was once to often. I never did it again. Mages mainly grouping ones got together and basically shouted down those that said we are a utility class (yes some wanted us to be a utility class), and drop nothing but rods. The sad part those saying we were a utility class, a lot of them were raiding mages. Grouping mages didn't really care, we had pet canni. Only raiders needed the rods to be non stop droppable. Thnigs change but grouping mages were more for better pets and more dps, and pet heals then raiding mages. Not all but certainly some. Now it is the reverse. We won the day and the raiding mages of today need to thank so many mages no longer playing that pushed long and hard for DPS to be the mainstay of the class. We are again back to fighting for it.

In the last beta I was against making the rods usable by all. and one mage argued with me saying but it is a reason I will be wanted on a raid. I said push for DPS because a bot mge can do rods. It does help that all can use them, but was I wrong saying having rods usable by all was a winning feature for mages? No it isn't, never was and never will be. Utility is NOT what a mage is. DPS is first and foremost the mage speciality. In the burst department we are so lacking it is pathetic.

As a class for the next expansion we can not neglect pets. In fact we never can neglect pets, so we ask for their upgrades, but burst DPS needs the most attention, and that does not mean now or ever asking for less pet power to gain burst DPS. We never trade one for the other. We ask for both. We ask for the moon, and the stars as does every other class. We negotiate down if we must but not trade one for the other.

So I hope all will agree, stop the infighting now. Burst DPS by it's very nature will help the raiding mage and the grouping mage. That is as it should be, and again look to the wizard there burst DPS and a necro's help the grouper as well as raider and you will never see the infigthing. So let us not infight either.

Also on the next beta if your in it and as in the last one wher Tuli didn't bother to post at all except in the beginning and the end, then we need if your in beta to PM a dev and say our class correspondent is not talking to the class, please add another one so we have feed back that is allowed. Or make a new topic and make the heading. Magician Class Lead Tulison will you please rejoin your class threads as your missing in action.

Calebe