new stuff

[Savil]

Just a fyi it is really hard to be nice when you essentially got told everyother class is broken in a good way for DPS, but yours is currently balanced so deal with it.

Again, that's not what I said at all. That's what you apparently WANTED to read. What I said was, another class being broken is not justification for you being broken as well.

Seriously, if you're not going to discuss things I actually say, then there's nothing more to talk about, and we're done here. The choice is yours.

Honestly elidroth, please reread what you said in that post and tell me you can't understand how pie would feel that way? Seriously reread it. If its not what you intended you need to be more clear with your posts. A lot of mages are very upset by this issue, many older mages have already left EQ, and a handful more aren't even raiding anymore because of the DPS issue. Many more will leave if the next beta doesn't fix the class.

Savil

[Piemastaj]

yea because everyone wants to read their class sux.... that is not what i wanted to hear. the way you posted however left it open to interpretation, which i might add i wasnt the only 1 who thought that is what you said. since it wasnt ever said that either class was getting fixed.

[sharrien]

Just a fyi it is really hard to be nice when you essentially got told everyother class is broken in a good way for DPS, but yours is currently balanced so deal with it.

Again, that's not what I said at all. That's what you apparently WANTED to read. What I said was, another class being broken is not justification for you being broken as well.

Seriously, if you're not going to discuss things I actually say, then there's nothing more to talk about, and we're done here. The choice is yours.

It always amazes how rude folks can be. A developer comes here to engage us in discussion and half the folks on this board attack him. It's not just rude, it's stupid.

I believe that Malleria has a good point that any new abilities should be done during the next beta so that they can be thoroughly tested. In the interim however, it would be nice if mages could get a few tweeks to existing abilities that could increase burst dps. Maybe bump the strength or duration of Fire Core or one of the other suggestions in the burst dps thread.

[Savil]

It always amazes how rude folks can be. A developer comes here to engage us in discussion and half the folks on this board attack him. It's not just rude, it's stupid.

I believe that Malleria has a good point that any new abilities should be done during the next beta so that they can be thoroughly tested. In the interim however, it would be nice if mages could get a few tweeks to existing abilities that could increase burst dps. Maybe bump the strength or duration of Fire Core or one of the other suggestions in the burst dps thread.

I have no problems with this being done next beta, and tbh never expected him to try to fix this mid stream. I do have problems with him changing his story so often. In the last 2 weeks hes said 3 different things about our DPS. Dev or not, there something to be said for consistency. I just want elidroth to answer a few basic questions, and explain his choice of words. If he honestly didn't mean it the way I and other mages took it, I'll be the first to say I'm sorry and move on. Hes been asked this several times now yet instead of telling us what his line of thought really is, he has instead took the time to say I'm lying, and pie only sees what he wants.

How many times was this asked of him in the last several posts? I've lost count, I find it interesting that he spends more time calling out the people that are asking him hard questions than answering those same questions. Mages took this entire thing with grace during UF and you see what it got us. Nothing.

Savil

[Calebe]

Tone it down Savil and others. Eldiroth was kind enough to come here. Post his thoughts and say he wants to help and many of you nit pick and don't even read correctly what he wrote. Let me point it out to some of you that missed it:

Mages need some love. No argument from either myself or Aristo. How that happens is definitely a subject for discussion. When that happens is also. I'd personally like to see that happen sooner than later.

Do I need to make that part bigger? Really? I guess I do as some missed it.

I'd personally like to see that happen sooner than later.

There now you can all read it. I don't want to be rude Savil or to others, but when I read this I was like smurf this is the best news possible, and instead of cheers or some of you saying thank you, you go off on a tangent to go over old posts that may now not mean a thing as he would like to address the issue sooner rather then later. Yet by dragging it all up, all you can do is make him wonder why bother when all some will do is not read correctly, or just pick on certain things, and not the huge thing he said. When it comes down to the fine points of what we need and how much, that is a question we can all address and in a civil manner and not go over all the older posts.

The best news we had all hoped for was said and some gloss it over. No wonder mages stagnate and devs look away. They do try and because of our own self pity and yes a justified feeling of neglect we fail to grasp a ray of sunlight and say THANK YOU Eldiroth for that post, it is the best news we could ever have hoped for. Yes we know you will try and may not get it for awhile, but saying you want to see it sooner rather then later gives us hope.

So I will say it Eldiroth THANK YOU for that post and that one line, which means more then some here hoped. Some would wait till next expansion, and you give hope for this one in which we are hurting so badly as we were in the last one.

Calebe

[Calebe]

smurf I didn't notice this and I wish I had. You see when Eldiroth posted his last comments?

by Elidroth » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:32 am

He is reading this board at that time? If that doesn't say something nothing will. He is up late or early depending how you want to look at it, but thanks for thinking of EQ and the mage class at that hour, and taking time to post. I just wish more respected your commitment as posting at that hour shows.

Calebe

[Voragath]

To be fair, here, I'd like to see people stop mixing up two posts on entirely different issues and beating Eli over the head with it. People are getting dangerously close to "quote mining" and that is a piss poor tactic to discussion.

First, the post that started it all was titled something like, "annual classes that need dps increases". That thread was very specifically about raid dps and nothing else. On point, it was mainly about what we call burst dps. In that thread is where Eli stated that he agreed mages needed lots o' love in the dps department and where he also stated it should come from pets. I can only imagine that he was only responding to that aspect of the game since that's what the thread was about.

Second, another post in the mage forums on eqlive was titled something like, "how i'd change my class" in which a mage who basically doesn't have a clue to the issues mages face (and turns out to be a liar and troll) made a post about general mage dps as he was comparing raid and group dps abilities. In that thread, Eli made the statements that dps should come from all 3 forms and that mages can't agree on which form the most dps should come from.

So, in the first post he was talking about a boost in raid dps and that boost should not come from pets. Or, even a general boost. I emphasize "boost" here because he is talking about a boost. In the second thread, he was responding to our overall dps and not anything about boosting. That thread, the OP wanted to move dps from pets to spells which is what caused Eli to make his comments. There is nothing contradictory in saying we need a boost which should not involve pets and saying that our dps should be spread out amongst 3 forms. So stop saying he once said our dps should not come from pets and then he said it should. What he said was that the dps we need to close the gap should come from pets but when it comes to balancing mage dps, it needs to come from 3 forms.

[Piemastaj]

you guys are also not being attacked by eli. eli isnt a god, it is great that he is posting here but im not going to kiss his ass b/c he is doing his job. if eli would start explaining things instead of side-stepping questions it would be a lot more helpful then coming here accusing us.

are we going to get any type of response as to what ideas you even like from us? or how much of an increase we could get? you have come here and said stop arguing and you need dps increases, but havent said much more on the increases.

[Voragath]

I'd also like to add in that I'd like to see people toning it down. Eli has already threatened to stop discussion but people are still browbeating him. He came here on his own volition and is not required to be here. He has answered many questions. It is time for discussion and not interrogation. If you see an inconsistency, ask him for clarification, don't jump his case with accusations. Bringing up implications, sure.

I am glad he came here and is having a discussion, which shows he really is interested in helping us. If you are angry or upset, either wait until you are calm to post or pm Eli. If your intent is to beat up Eli, fine, do it and win while the whole mage community loses. I'd rather see Eli stick around, even if it is on his own time, and really work with us to get us back on track because it is more than any other developer has ever done for us.

[svenalo]

Why not just take the stuff posted at face value without reading between the lines, pulling in bad feelings you may have from any past interactions, comments in other threads, and so on. Doing all that is just muddying the waters and getting us absolutely no where, so much so that this thread is now once again seriously derailed and becoming pointless - the last 3 pages are just "he said she said" finger pointing. Let's bury the hatchets, turn off the flamethrowers, and stick to the meat of the issues. Will that be difficult? Probably because this is a hot button issue for just about everyone on every side...but unless we go the extra mile and focus on sticking to the issue and avoiding the reactionary stuff we are not going to get anything resolved.