The Magician's Tower

Piemastaj's pet on my parse is normally somewhere around 1/3 of my overall DMG/DPS to the mob. Which includes RmS, swarm, flappy in it. Thats a good amount of dmg/dps you would be lacking from every mage on your raid. Either do what Zac says or just dont use swarm on the raid and tell your raid ldr your doing this. Then when the mob gets pushed to hell and back they can start blaming dumbass people.

Malleria wrote:They also made some changes to NPC push values in TBS, which I believe returned pets to their earlier huge-push status. BUT THEY THEN CHANGED IT BACK. So if someone tries to throw the TBS changes at you, they're cherry picking patch notes and are wrong.

Oh yeah, I remember that, too, now that you mention it.

Based on Suediwenae's description, in any case, it sounds like the Melee Horde wasn't paying attention. I'm loading EQ via patcher to see if I can squeak in before the thing kicks me off. Very curious now. It would be an interesting experiment to get some data in a controlled setting. I'm sure (if I can get in) I won't be able to get any real volume of data, but at least enough to hand-wave.

When I get moved I will pay for a month and run several tests under several conditions so Mages can say "Allow me to retort..." definitively.

Bara

Sadly tonight I noticed in Convorteum (with 3 mages), RmS has a lot of push. Even when just 1 was on the mob it was moving it out of melee range of the tank. I might not have been 100% focused on this, but that is a bad thing and it should be re-looked at again. RmS should have some push granted, but it seemed like a lot more push then what we have seen in the past. Idk tho, maybe this thread got me a little bit paranoid lol.

Pets, RS, and swarm all have a very small amount. This is offset by mob push and positioning. I use water pet to tank in PG and have not had any new push problems. The ONLY "problem" is using host. If host, RS, and pet are all on the same side, the mob can be pushed the height of my erud. By simply using relocation and getting the pet to the opposite of the mob, the movement becomes barely noticeable. That's just our host.

Now, when we do warrens, that mob goes all over that little room. We generally field 6+ rangers and 2-3 mages. We all pop our swarms and it gets ugly fast but the melee's learned early on to circle the mob. Actually, thinking about it, this is the ideal mob to train your raid force on how to control mob push and learn how to reposition the mob. If you fail at it, it's possible it climbs the wall / goes through the wall and leashes. I stand in the very center and the raid can make that thing dance on my head no matter how many swarm are there.

The answer: pets push but PC's have more push and more control over it, therefore your raid melee just suxxored that night and need to pull their collective head out of their collective colon.

Baramos wrote: Your Magicians don't know what they're talking about. Your melee are all bashing indiscriminately. And they are scapegoating pets. And your Magicians are noobs and just throwing gas onto the same fire that keeps re-igniting.

It's not that the melee don't know how to balance a mob, they have been doing it for years.
It's just when we get complacent on events we have been winning and expect to win, then there is no focus on the details, we get sloppy and wipe... So the finger pointing starts and Mage pets have to be the reason... So it is written in long established EQ lore.

Baramos wrote:
If you don't get any evidence then the cacophony of melee (who always complain about this, ignorantly) supported by any errant noob Mage(s) will just convince Xslia and the rest of the crew that it is correct.

To Xslia's defense, she tries to be as neutral as possible in her position as Guild Leader, but she is a Wizard and does not have full understanding of pet behavior, which she admits.
When Calebe and I try to argue that the problem is not pet push, then 2 or 3 mages jump into the channel and tell Xslia that we are wrong and pets push mobs all over the place.
So Xslia is confused.
You can’t talk to a non-pet class about degrees of pet push or reductions in push vs years ago, or the mob push canceling our pet's push.
The pets either push or they don't, and if they push, then melee will forever blame pets when scapegoating opportunities arise.
We can debate the percentages of push forever, but if I put my pet, RS and swarm on a mob and the fight last 60 seconds, during which time the mob and pets move 3 feet, IMO there is no pet push.
Why? Because there will be agro changes as RS takes agro then dies and my pet gets agro back then the possibility of a new RS getting back on top of the agro list.
Each time the mob switches to hitting a new opponent, it moves to center itself on the new target.
How do you decide that the 3 feet of movement over the 60 second fight duration was due to target switching or push?
And if it was a combination of both, how do you assign a value to the distance pets supposedly pushed the mob?
When pets used to push, there was no debate, mobs moved all over the map.
Unless the mob was cornered, a mage had to run in a circle around the mob while swarm pets deployed or a single mage could push a raid named off the board.
Right now there is no pet push to speak of, so if magicians don't speak with one voice, this topic is going to be resurrected year after year until EQ is no more.

There are a lot of people with old prejudices to the point that we could take 1/2 hour at the start of a raid night, pick a mob and have nothing but mage pets, RS and swarm from 10 magicians on one side.
Even if the mob never moves, they will still blame push in the raid on pets.


Sued...

Danille wrote:is this what your looking for?

07/02/2007 20:12:41 Subject: Re:Spells and push
Rashere
EQ Development
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts ... _id=113665" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thx Danille, that is exactly the post i needed.

Zacatac wrote: Start parsing yourself and all the other pets, add up the damage, and ask your raid leaders if they want to handicap the DPS of every raid by removing it.

Already told them about the DPS loss and since we raid with approx 6+ magicians, it adds up to a lot of DPS loss in UFO events. The only pet issue i agree with is when mobs that AOE are being kited so that the raid can burn singles, using RS or AA pets can be problamatic becase we have no control over them and they can go after the AOE mobs and screw up agro for the kiters. In those cases we should not use uncontrollable pets.

Sued...

qibrme wrote:

Baramos wrote: Your Magicians don't know what they're talking about. Your melee are all bashing indiscriminately. And they are scapegoating pets. And your Magicians are noobs and just throwing gas onto the same fire that keeps re-igniting.

It's not that the melee don't know how to balance a mob, they have been doing it for years.
It's just when we get complacent on events we have been winning and expect to win, then there is no focus on the details, we get sloppy and wipe... So the finger pointing starts and Mage pets have to be the reason... So it is written in long established EQ lore.

Baramos wrote:
If you don't get any evidence then the cacophony of melee (who always complain about this, ignorantly) supported by any errant noob Mage(s) will just convince Xslia and the rest of the crew that it is correct.

To Xslia's defense, she tries to be as neutral as possible in her position as Guild Leader, but she is a Wizard and does not have full understanding of pet behavior, which she admits.
When Calebe and I try to argue that the problem is not pet push, then 2 or 3 mages jump into the channel and tell Xslia that we are wrong and pets push mobs all over the place.
So Xslia is confused.
You can’t talk to a non-pet class about degrees of pet push or reductions in push vs years ago, or the mob push canceling our pet's push.
The pets either push or they don't, and if they push, then melee will forever blame pets when scapegoating opportunities arise.
We can debate the percentages of push forever, but if I put my pet, RS and swarm on a mob and the fight last 60 seconds, during which time the mob and pets move 3 feet, IMO there is no pet push.
Why? Because there will be agro changes as RS takes agro then dies and my pet gets agro back then the possibility of a new RS getting back on top of the agro list.
Each time the mob switches to hitting a new opponent, it moves to center itself on the new target.
How do you decide that the 3 feet of movement over the 60 second fight duration was due to target switching or push?
And if it was a combination of both, how do you assign a value to the distance pets supposedly pushed the mob?
When pets used to push, there was no debate, mobs moved all over the map.
Unless the mob was cornered, a mage had to run in a circle around the mob while swarm pets deployed or a single mage could push a raid named off the board.
Right now there is no pet push to speak of, so if magicians don't speak with one voice, this topic is going to be resurrected year after year until EQ is no more.

There are a lot of people with old prejudices to the point that we could take 1/2 hour at the start of a raid night, pick a mob and have nothing but mage pets, RS and swarm from 10 magicians on one side.
Even if the mob never moves, they will still blame push in the raid on pets.


Sued...

Yeah, Sued, I agree with all this stuff, particularly "what have they done to them lately" idea since old patch data will be ignored particularly if there is disagreement among the Mages and the usual virulent melee complaints.

This is why I think a brand new set of tests should be done with data x (a lot), then dispassionately explained. It would be even better if you could get a Bill Nye Science Guy type of dev to look at it and nod. Then post. No matter how the results turned out at least everyone would know, including us. To have it quasi-ratified by a dev would be icing, but even without it, with enough samples and sweeping of variables you can make a case and then let people decide for themselves.

I played for a few hours today, deliberately putting my pets on MOBS that would get adds with any substantial push and watched MOBs *NOT* move worth mentioning. I threw the kitchen sink all on one side several times, with forceful, 2 RS up at all times, 3 up at some points, Air and Earth, swarms all on one side. Just a laughable amount of movement. I don't buy it at all, as a result.

I remember moving Ture all the way back to his corner or getting messy adds backed up to kingdom come with a swarm. Other people probably remember that too, and OH YEAH PET PUSH. Or something.

Anyway, it's going to be a stalemate or officious decree without real data to support either side.

Good luck.

Bara

edit: One more thing. In a similar argument from long, long, ago someone brought up "zone differences". So that's another variable to test, if anyone bothers to do this. I'd just determine the variables then do a binary sweep times 5 or 10. Whatever you can stand.
edit again: Oh, MOB type too. Floaty-aroundy MOB or stand-on-the-ground-and-fight-you MOB. (Obviously not rooted MOB).

Here is the video of the air pet with 1) max overhaste; 2) highest possible air stun weapons equipped; and 3) pet spell casting turned ON with the pet casting a stun every few seconds.


Notice that the goo in the center of the small table barely moves 1/4 of his body distance by the end of the fight!

He probaly would have moved even less if the fight didn;t start with the pet a tiny bit inside it's hitbox, which would never occur in a raid.

http://www.gamecamportal.com/vpv.aspx?vidid=808" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't know the values, but one thing to consider when evaluating push (by melee or by pets) is that different weapon types have different amounts of push: Piercing weapons have the least push, Blunt weapons have the most push. Slashing and Hand-to-hand fall somewhere in between.

Elmago wrote:I don't know the values, but one thing to consider when evaluating push (by melee or by pets) is that different weapon types have different amounts of push: Piercing weapons have the least push, Blunt weapons have the most push. Slashing and Hand-to-hand fall somewhere in between.

Neebat wrote:
Ok, this may be going one step too far, but any chance you could confirm or deny the ordering of the different skills? Legend has it, the order from most push to least push is:
Blunt (Do 1hb and 2hb push the same?)
Slash (same question)
Pierce
Hand-to-hand
Archery
You've confirmed that for normal spells, the value is ZERO. Archery too? Does backstab have its own push value or does it use the piercing value? (Or maybe it's zero?)

Rashere:
I don't recall the values offhand, but it looked like most 1 handed base attacks were the same, 2 handed did more, and special attacks (including backstab) did even more. Archery was between a 1-handed attack and a 2-handed one if I recall.