Our own worst enemy

[Savil]

I was tanking 2 at once with EM9, and just for fun, I tried to kill one with EM8, and had no issues. 2 at once was "interesting" but I won. 3 at once would totally kill em8 pet.

Tanking 2 yellows at EM8 is more than fine with AA use. Tanking 1 at EM8 with a merc and having no issues is more than fine, and EM8 is uber common.

Savil

[Calebe]

Lets stop with how many mobs a pet can tank now ok. We need burst DPS, and what a pet can do now won't mean anything next expansion, it must tank the new mobs in that one. So the beta mages will make smurf sure they can tank it. That should not be an issue for now, it is for then.

Stick to the topic we need burst DPS NOW, and will need to be sure it stays in the next expansion. So now = burst dps. In expansion being sure pets stay able to tank and the burst DPS we sorely need is addressed and working. Also bragging about how many yellows you can tank will get many asking for nurfs not realizing you spent 3000 aa's and a high raid focus to make it happen. So lets be a little on the necro side and keep it quiet.

Calebe

[svenalo]

Let's also stop with the finger pointing and "so and so is a liar" talk.

[Sillaen]

Note: Before anyone jump down my throat, keep in mind I completely agreed with the list compiled by Vor in the other thread which was all spell burst DPS upgrades as requested by the devs in the original recognition of us needing more burst DPS. And again, NO I'm not one of the people, whomever they are that are PM'ing devs about pet DPS upgrades.

However, I don't want to become a bastard wizard with just a different set of class titles, we are a pet class. We are THE pet class. Please, whoever ends up being our primary spokesmen, don't trade away our pets' tanking ability or sustained dps nor allow it to stagnate in favor of pushing an adgenda for end-game raiding.

This is what I don't want the mage class to become. Pet tanking is currently fine as it is like Savil said. Our standard upgrades will have it keeping up. However never before are we going to see the discrepancy in pet DPS compared to total DPS. Let's say they bump us to about 60K (making numbers up here)burst (about 90'ish % of top rng burst). Your pet will contribute ~ 8% of your DPS and since it seems everyone hates any type of pet DPS increase for raiding purposes, we will continue to ask for spell DPS increases which will just push the pet % further behind. Can anyone still call themselves a mage when your pet is doing less than 8% of your total dmg? And how long before we just say smurf it and just not summon a pet anymore like necros because it's too much of a hassle for a negligible amount when bursting. Yes, I'm aware that there is still a group component and solo component. So, we'll be mages in groups and when solo, but crappier wizards when raiding. That doesn't sit too well with me.

Tying burst dps to our pets probably won't work like most have said. DPS that dies when our pets die is wasted.

It's not a matter of it wont work. It's just that the easiest way to dump mana for quick dmg is through spells and people like to take the easy way out. It's not that difficult to come up with ideas for pet burst dps. It's not like the days of old when pets were being banned from raids and today we have the tools to keep our pet alive.(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not bleeding edge. I don't know what the later HoT raids are like). I agree that DPS that dies when your pet dies is wasted.

[Savil]

A large part of the solutions to mage DPS issues is very simple to fix. All thats needed is a of many line that is tied to the amount of people on the mobs agro list. This damage would scale higher at the 12 / 24 / 36 / 42 / 54 levels .. or just a blunt X dmg / PC on hate list. It could even have a max of X via rank of the spell used.

Using a system like this would completely prevent it from unbalancing the group / solo game. Wire and I told elidroth this very idea during UF beta, and nothing was done.

I said what I did about pets to address the fear many mages have about their pets suddenly not being able to tank. It is a very important issue that needs to be resolved before we can move on. Ignoring it isn't going to make it go away, this is evident by the fact that elidroth is calming to continue to get more and move requests for increased pet power.

Clearly were not all on the same page. Until we are, talking about this is a lost cause due to the simple fact random ppl are still going to be asking for pet this and pet that.

Savil

[Calebe]

No one is asking for pets to stagnate. No one is asking that pets do less DPS. We are asking for burst DPS, which means it is a limited time effort to dump as much mana into DPS in as short a time as possible to burn down a mob. That will not be your normal DPS, it will not be something you can do long at all. It is short term. Over all the pet should still do the same DPS it does now, but not in a burn situation.

Think back to when mana burn was introduced. Roaming bands of wizards would find a dragon up in Kunark (when mana burn was introduced), they would mana burn it down instantly, and auction (ie: sell) off the loot or charge to do this 'service'. Would anyone say that mana burn was their normal DPS to tune them around or say that is their normal DPS? No and this is the same, you can't look at a pet, look at a burn scenario and say the pet DPS is just 5% of our total DPS. That just isn't the way it works. You look at non (normal) DPS you do to mobs and make sure the pet is a respectable % of the damage it does or the DPS it puts out.

Never equate burn and pet DPS and say the pet lacks. You look at non burn and pet DPS and work from there.

Calebe

[Savil]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with almost everything your saying. I don't think the pets will have an issue, and I don't want our DPS increase to be tied to them. I think they take fine now, and with the same level of upgrade they got from UF to HoT they should be fine.

That said there are MANY people still asking about the pets, its not a dead issue as you seem to think Clearly lots of people are still asking elidroth for pet updates. This is the part I'm talking about.

Savil

[Danille]

My advice is for everyone focus on what we all can do to provide input, ideas, advice to help the situation versus focusing on what everyone else is doing wrong.

[Savil]

My advice is for everyone focus on what we all can do to provide input, ideas, advice to help the situation versus focusing on what everyone else is doing wrong.

That would work out well if we weren't going in 10 diff directions, even elidroth is saying we need to get on a common page. Telling us to just come up with stuff without a common direction isn't going to get us very far.

Savil

[sharrien]

My advice is for everyone focus on what we all can do to provide input, ideas, advice to help the situation versus focusing on what everyone else is doing wrong.

That would work out well if we weren't going in 10 diff directions, even elidroth is saying we need to get on a common page. Telling us to just come up with stuff without a common direction isn't going to get us very far.

Savil

If a common direction is what he is asking from us, then why not provide it? We could try creating a thread much like the "suggestions for next expansion" discussion, but focussed on suggestions for burst dps only. Let folks contribute for a while and put the most popular/most reasonable suggestions on a poll. Public brainstorming and a poll I think would be more effective than expecting Elidroth to sift through threads that are mostly us criticising each other or random PMs that he has no clue if they have any popular support or if they are just one person's wish list.